S50/S52 swap... is it worth it?

[dinanm3atl]

Um, when was the last time you looked at prices?

S54+6spd+DME+wiring goes for $3500-$5k all day long nowadays. Add $3k for the ABL or Bimmerworld electronics kit, and you have a bolt-in S54 running in your car for $6-8k. Of course, you need exhaust, but you need that for an S50/2 swap also so for cost comparisons it can be ignored.

S54 is a very very attractive swap candidate. For the cost of an S50/2 swap + bolt ons or S50/2 swap + used supercharger, you have more horsepower, more reliable engine, less weight(vs FI), and a much better track motor.

Haven't seen these 3500 dollar Engine, Trans, DME and wiring. I have seen 5-6K ones though. Then you add in 3K for tuning/electronics and you are at what? 8-9K? What about the driveshaft? Engine mounts? Trans mount? What about the actual trans brace? Is there an OEM driveshaft to use? Need a Guibo. Yes and then exhaust and some sort of intake. What cooling system setup do you use?

There is more to a swap than "Engine/trans and a DEM". I think you are skipping a lot of cost and/or skimping on parts. I have estimated and bee told expect 10K to swap an S54 at minimum to be done right. You can claim otherwise and I'll let you have your opinion...

However once I am at 8K? M52 + Turbo. Weight? Maybe it is slightly heavier. It will make more power. Will be super reliable because to make more power than that S54 requires low boost. It makes cooler noises. If you pop a motor it isn't another 5K to replace it. It is 500-800 bucks.

Sorry but IMO the S54 is not a 'budget minded' swap into any BMW.

[dinanm3atl]

Have you looked at dynos recently? I know of five or six dynojet 240-250whp S52s WITHOUT cams or as full/expensive exhaust as Chris has. That power range is pretty normal for a bolt on S52 without cams. WITH cams (Schrick-Sunbelt-Sunbelt Race-Evosport), the same motors do ~260-300whp, all NA. Granted, 260whp is much more drivable than 300whp, but my point is that cams are absolutely not needed for 300 NA crank horsepower.

I can provide dyno sheets that aren't Chris's motor if you want.

Dunno man. I wouldn't call this common. There are hundreds of those cars with those bolt on mods and tjey are not making 250whp off a CAI, exhaust, midsection and pullies. These mods are good for 1-2hp real world. Exhuast? A catback? Does close to nothing. A "CAI" is close to nothing. THese are mods that have been around for a decade for these cars and years of dyno sheets. Just have not seen these types of gains from that mod list.

YMMV.

[Suspence]

I'll pay someone to do it in Socal to find a motor, tranny and install it... throw a price at me as long as it's lower than what this shop charged me :).

[bimmerteck]

Haven't seen these 3500 dollar Engine, Trans, DME and wiring. I have seen 5-6K ones though. Then you add in 3K for tuning/electronics and you are at what? 8-9K? What about the driveshaft? Engine mounts? Trans mount? What about the actual trans brace? Is there an OEM driveshaft to use? Need a Guibo. Yes and then exhaust and some sort of intake. What cooling system setup do you use?

There is more to a swap than "Engine/trans and a DEM". I think you are skipping a lot of cost and/or skimping on parts. I have estimated and bee told expect 10K to swap an S54 at minimum to be done right. You can claim otherwise and I'll let you have your opinion...

However once I am at 8K? M52 + Turbo. Weight? Maybe it is slightly heavier. It will make more power. Will be super reliable because to make more power than that S54 requires low boost. It makes cooler noises. If you pop a motor it isn't another 5K to replace it. It is 500-800 bucks.

Sorry but IMO the S54 is not a 'budget minded' swap into any BMW.

Don't forget the oil cooler setup, headers, exhaust, Brake booster/masterless setup, drive by wire to mechanical conversion, and fuel pressure regulator/filter setup.

[ACHTUNG]

A shadetree mechanic that has done this swap a few times quoted me ~$1500 for the labor to do my S52 swap.

[z31maniac]

Dunno man. I wouldn't call this common. There are hundreds of those cars with those bolt on mods and tjey are not making 250whp off a CAI, exhaust, midsection and pullies. These mods are good for 1-2hp real world. Exhuast? A catback? Does close to nothing. A "CAI" is close to nothing. THese are mods that have been around for a decade for these cars and years of dyno sheets. Just have not seen these types of gains from that mod list.

YMMV.

My OBD-I S52 with 3.5 MAF, TMS equal length headers with a Burns 2-1 3" collector, TRM tune and 2.5" catback put down 235whp on a weak headgasket. I bet with pullies and a fresh headgasket it would have been in the low 240s.

I know the guy who bought the engine from me once fixed and he is VERY happy with it's performance.

But I bet most of that power is in the headers/tune. So if you are using eBay/Raceland/crap headers, you aren't going to match those numbers. But nobody here is willing to drop $1000 on headers when the engine itself cost $1500.

[mr.vang]

I just had an offer from a buddy at a shop that would do a full swap for me at around 2,500 bucks. I would need to supply the motor, tranny and a few other small things. This a good deal?

My current M20 is on it's last legs, not sure what I'll do but I plan on saving up for awhile.

Is the swap worth it? Is it that much more fun?

since your in CA, i'll bring up the smog/registration issue. i believe if you let a shop swap it for you, its easier to get it ref. so you don't have to go through a whole bunch of crap.

[Bimmerman325i]

I'll admit even I could do it slightly cheaper the 2nd time around(hindsight's 20/20), but if you think you can do it for 6k feel free to try and let me know how it works out. I've done the s54 swap and totaled the receipts and it's getting more affordable all the time but it isn't that cheap quite yet. 8k-9k could be tight but quite possible if you got the donor motor cheap enough.

Right, I didn't include in the $6k the cooling/exhaust/misc costs, but they aren't all that different from an S50/2 swap, so I'm just using that as a constant cost for both swaps.

I mentioned that I didn't include any of that. The $6k is the cost for motor and electronics/DBW kit. That DIRECTLY compares to the $2-3k cost for an S50/2 + electronics without mods. All other costs are not much different, and are assumed to be constant.

please, share the dyno sheet of a 300whp S50. It must spin up to 8500rpm to keep the VE up high enough?

we all know dynojets are optimistic.

and naturally, you're still using correction factors pulled from thin air to arrive at your 300hp crank with simple bolt ons. If you had an actual engine dyno, I'd be less skeptical.

Correction factors, sure. What you can tell is that, for Chris's car at least, he went from 207whp to 245whp, and when you consider that there is a 15-18% drivetrain loss, that is more like 50-60bhp at the crank increase over stock, putting the engine in the 290-300bhp range. This isn't rocket science: take the delta from stock to modded, multiply by drivetrain loss figures (240bhp->207whp stock, hint: 16% loss), and wow.....pretty clear. Add tuning for the mods and the 245whp would undoubtedly go higher.

As for the 300whp curve, take a look at the following dyno. The motor has Shrick cams, lightly ported head (didn't do anything vs non-ported head, look at 2nd dyno), Conforti Eurosport OBDII cam S/W, KK headers, AA race exhaust. The only change on the Evosport cam runs is the Evosoprt cams.

WITHOUT tuning or playing with vanos limiting or cam timing, it pulled 290whp. WITH tuning, the IP guys are making 300+whp.



And to quiet you guys bitching about the "ported head," here are TWO dynos of guys without ported heads, but with the headers/AA race exhaust/Shrick Cams/OBD2 S52.


Mods: Conforti/Eurosport Shrick cam kit, pullies, bbtb, intake boot, KK headers and AA race exhaust.

Look at the upper portion of the curve. Owner reports misfire, possible bad gas, but car was on its way to making 270 whp NA with the Shrick cams and NO ported head.


Same day, same dyno, different cars, different cams:


Shrick is red curve, Sunbelt SPORT is blue curve. You can also clearly see why it makes no sense to rev the S52 past 7000rpm.

Mods:

Shrick car: Eurosport Shrick Cam Kit, UUC Pulleys, UUC Stage 2 LTW Flywheel, AA Gen I headers, AA Track Pipe, AA Gen III Exhaust

Sunbelt car: Bimmerworld Sunbelt Sport OBD2 kit, UUC Pulleys, UUC Stage 2 LTW Flywheel, AA Gen 2 headers, AA Track Pipe, AA Gen III Exhaust


97 M3
Mods: 3.5" Afe intake, Porsche 3.5" MAF, US SS headers/mids, Stromung exhaust, 3.46 LSD, BBTB, UDP's, fan delete, OBDI Manifold swap, 24lb injectors, Shrick cams, Conforti software.

I think I've made my point. 300whp is possible from an S52 with proper tuning and cam timing, 260-270whp is the norm for a Shrick cammed car, 240-250 is normal for all other bolt ons. I've done seriously extensive research on S50 vs S52 vs S54, and the costs to not only swap one in an e30 but also an e36.

[nando]

all dynojet graphs. It's great that they gained so much over stock, but they'd probably be 15-20whp less on a different dyno. It illustrates that chasis dynos are for tuning, not for bragging.

[Bimmerman325i]

Post #2: Non-cammed S52s.


99 M3
Mods: 3.5"Ecis Cai, Euro HFM, M50 Manifold, Stromung Exhaust, AA Custom Software


99 M3
Mods: M50 Intake Manifold, Conforti 3.5" CAI, AA Software, 3.5" HFM (unplugged), Fan Delete, Strömung Exhaust, UUC Stg2 Ltw Flywheel w/ Stg1 Clutch, AA Track Pipe


95 M3 with 3L S50, Pre/Post Schrick install
Mods:Eurosport/Conforti/Schrick package, shorty SuperSprint headers, stock cats, Stromung exhaust, underdrive pulleys, fan delete, 91 octane


Something odd going on at 6krpm, power likely would go higher
98 M3 92k
Mods: AA 3.5 CAI, 540 HFM, BW elbow, M50, 24# injectors, underdrive pulleys, UUC ltw fly, Raceland headers, custom 3' exhaust (just a Borla muffler), Conforti software.

I could go on, but I have to finish some stuff for class.

[Bimmerman325i]

all dynojet graphs. It's great that they gained so much over stock, but they'd probably be 15-20whp less on a different dyno. It illustrates that chasis dynos are for tuning, not for bragging.

Doesn't matter what dyno. Stock S52s dyno on a dynojet between 205-210whp. The gains from there to modded are quite real, so I don't get the dynojet hate.

The numbers aren't firm hard numbers, but what they do show is the gains from mods at the rear wheels, and thus the gains at the motor are 15-18% higher when drivetrain loss is accounted for.

The numbers would be 15-20whp less on a different dyno, but so would the stock graphs and numbers!!!! So again, I don't see where your dynojet hate is coming from. The point is to show gains vs stock, which these do extremely well.

[bimmerteck]

Right, I didn't include in the $6k the cooling/exhaust/misc costs, but they aren't all that different from an S50/2 swap, so I'm just using that as a constant cost for both swaps.

I mentioned that I didn't include any of that. The $6k is the cost for motor and electronics/DBW kit. That DIRECTLY compares to the $2-3k cost for an S50/2 + electronics without mods. All other costs are not much different, and are assumed to be constant.

That's where the s54 swap sneaks up and bites you in the ass, EVERYTHING we ordered for that swap was more expensive often 20%-40% occasionally it was as much as 10x!

for example I wanted to refresh the cooling system and do some other common maintenance while the s54 was on the stand. . .

s52 water pump- $52
s54 water pump- $406 $354!

Spark Plugs
s52 -$10 x6
s54 -$15 x6 $30!

UUC Flywheel/clutch
e36 5 speed-$895
e46 6 speed-$1,195 $300

Motor Oil
s52 -$7 x7
s54 -$13 x6 $29

That's $713 more just for 4 typical maintenance things I do on almost all my swaps!

[Bimmerman325i]

That's where the s54 swap sneaks up and bites you in the ass, EVERYTHING we ordered for that swap was more expensive often 20%-40% occasionally it was as much as 10x!

for example I wanted to refresh the cooling system and do some other common maintenance while the s54 was on the stand. . .

s52 water pump- $52
s54 water pump- $406 $354!

Spark Plugs
s52 -$10 x6
s54 -$15 x6 $30!

UUC Flywheel/clutch
e36 5 speed-$895
e46 6 speed-$1,195 $300

Motor Oil
s52 -$7 x7
s54 -$13 x6 $29

That's $713 more just for 4 typical maintenance things I do on almost all my swaps!

Wow, no kidding. Good info!

[giantkeeper]

That's where the s54 swap sneaks up and bites you in the ass, EVERYTHING we ordered for that swap was more expensive often 20%-40% occasionally it was as much as 10x!

for example I wanted to refresh the cooling system and do some other common maintenance while the s54 was on the stand. . .

s52 water pump- $52
s54 water pump- $406 $354!

Spark Plugs
s52 -$10 x6
s54 -$15 x6 $30!

UUC Flywheel/clutch
e36 5 speed-$895
e46 6 speed-$1,195 $300

Motor Oil
s52 -$7 x7
s54 -$13 x6 $29

That's $713 more just for 4 typical maintenance things I do on almost all my swaps!

and yet I still miss my S54

[bimmerteck]

Wow, no kidding. Good info!

I can also add to this thread that the euro s50b32 is cheaper than an s54 only in the electronics/throttle control portion of the swap, it could actually likely end up just as expensive due to the donor motor being several years older than the s54 donor was, and the cost incurred shipping it to the states. Not to mention some additional time spent during the build waiting on parts from Europe.


I'm still trying to talk someone into a newer n54 swap so I can go full bore with the servotronic steering, traction control, and a 6 speed. . .