24 Lb Inj. and TRM< 21.5 Inj and TMS real world tests.

[BMW_TUNER]

So as many of you have probably read I was having difficulty determining why a Full weight E36 M3 with a 21.5 TMS setup was hanging with me here at nearly 5000ft above sealevel where I live. Well as it turns out the E36 M3 is owned by my brother so yesterday we did some testing. We ran data sets from 30-60 in second gear and 50-70 in third we also did a rolling 5-60 mph. In each test (except the 5mph-60) I would set the cruise control at the desired base speed and my brother would count out (from the passangers seat) 1-2-3. On 3 I would pedal down, he would start the stopwatch and then he would stop it when the desired speed was indicated. I know that these tests where far from perfect but the variables where constant. My monkey foot on the pedal, my monkey brain reeaction time, my brothers finger on the stop watch and reation time to stop it. All test were done on the same day with the temp being the same about 85 degrees and all in my E30.

Also as a footnote the TRM and 24's had been in the car and tracked multiple times and was adapted. The TMS and 21.5's were then installed and adapted over a 10 mile drive then the tests where run.

So here is what the 5000ft responses were.

Averages Raw data is to long to type but I will supply if asked. This is not a dig on anyone. This data from 5000 ft.

TRM 30-60 TMS 30-60
3.7 sec 3.3 sec Best TRM was .5 sec slower than Best TMS

TRM 50-70 TMS 50-70
4.42 4.32 Again bests were .2 sec slower with TRM

Roling 5-60's

Average
TRM 5.5 TMS 5.14 Best TRM was 5.4 best TMS was 4.9 Sec.


As a foot note to the day a friend with an E46 M3 came over to compare perf. He has a 2002 m3 with SMG, 4.10 gearing headers underdrive pulleys 200 cell cats full stainless Exhaust. and a tune that both gives him a power gain and allows him to engauge the SMG's euro functions. We had previously compared the cars but I was unaware that he was shifting at 7000k instead of his 8300 red line. I was able to hang close to him with The TRM before but I was not aware that he was trying not to hurt my feelings. Now with the TMS in and adapted it was a 100% drivers race any delay on his part resulted in the E30 pulling even with my copilot in the car and him alone. I have to say that the TMS is more responsive and pulls like a fucking train. I am sure that the TRM is fine at sea level but I dont think it works up here. Big props to Jim C. Also thanks for the comparisons Mike.

[Adrian_Visser]

24lb injectors are overkill at sea level on an otherwise stock engine. I can imagine they would be overfueling a fair bit 5000 feet.

[BMW_TUNER]

It was good to see the numbers. .5 sec may not sound like much but it feels like an eternity in the car and it results in multiple car lengths when you add up tenths you lose in each gear. Also good to compare to a very angry e46.

[Wanganstyle]

Try at a higher speed, like 80-140mph with the S54. Results will be different- chip tune no chip tune, the cammning and Horsepower difference will show

[BMW_TUNER]

Try at a higher speed, like 80-140mph with the S54. Results will be different- chip tune no chip tune, the cammning and Horsepower difference will show

You are correct sir. The wind is my enemy. But into 4th he wasn't reeling me in yet.

[dude8383]

Try at a higher speed, like 80-140mph with the S54. Results will be different- chip tune no chip tune, the cammning and Horsepower difference will show

Where on earth are you going wind up a car to speeds like that? I don't know anywhere in NY where I can open my car without getting a speeding ticket and possible arrest!!!!

[BMW_TUNER]

Front straight at Reno fernley raceway will be fun next year but 115-120 is about it before you lift for the S's. Maybe I will take it out to Bonneville.

[Wanganstyle]

Where on earth are you going wind up a car to speeds like that? I don't know anywhere in NY where I can open my car without getting a speeding ticket and possible arrest!!!!

In NYC area you would just have to plot it out. Gumballing/cannonballing activites start there at times:P

Off the top of my head in the east coast IT can be done in philly, VAC has a pretty infamous loop that a e39M5/E34M5 can swoop 170 OVER on :O

obviously not legal on public street.......

[nando]

24lb injectors are overkill at sea level on an otherwise stock engine. I can imagine they would be overfueling a fair bit 5000 feet.

that doesn't make any sense at all. larger injectors don't overfuel if the tune is made for them. elevation doesn't have anything to do with it, either. MAF sensors work exactly the same at all elevations.

[eandrade]

Very interesting...I wonder how the results would be if this same exact test (with the same cars & driver & copilot) was run at (or near) sea level. I suspect the differential between the two setups will be different.

Have you guys considered making a trip to lower elevations? :)

[BMW_TUNER]

that doesn't make any sense at all. larger injectors don't overfuel if the tune is made for them. elevation doesn't have anything to do with it, either. MAF sensors work exactly the same at all elevations.

I thought the exact same thing until I compared the two. There is a guy on BF that claims to have dyno charts that show that multiple 24lb tunes make less hp and tq than 21.5 tunes.

It is beginning to sound slot like big foot. As in I am saying that ther is a big foot and everyone else is saying "I have never seen one and everyone knows they don't exist". The only difference I have comparative evidence to show that this Bigfoot is real at least here at 5k ft.

[BMW_TUNER]

Very interesting...I wonder how the results would be if this same exact test (with the same cars & driver & copilot) was run at (or near) sea level. I suspect the differential between the two setups will be different.

Have you guys considered making a trip to lower elevations? :)

I am sure they would be different. That is why I won't sell this chip and injectors to anyone who lives above 2000ft. That way I know they will be happy.

[nando]

I thought the exact same thing until I compared the two. There is a guy on BF that claims to have dyno charts that show that multiple 24lb tunes make less hp and tq than 21.5 tunes.

It is beginning to sound slot like big foot. As in I am saying that ther is a big foot and everyone else is saying "I have never seen one and everyone knows they don't exist". The only difference I have comparative evidence to show that this Bigfoot is real at least here at 5k ft.

except you're comparing apples and oranges. a TRM tune and a TMS tune. Everyone here thinks that fuel is where power is made, but in reality it's ignition timing. if your AFR is within half a point or so of 13:1 it's not going to make a noticeable difference in power. certainly not enough to measure by hand with a stop watch.

5 degrees advance or retard, however, can make a big difference, and you have no way of knowing that the *only* difference between the tunes is the injectors. in fact, it's gauranteed that there are other differences between them that are probably causing what you've measured.

just because the injectors are larger doesn't mean it's rich. being at higher altitude doesn't mean it will be rich, either. the MAF measures the actual mass of air and matches that to the amount of fuel it needs to reach the proper ratio. whether you are at sea level or 10,000 feet doesn't change that.

if you want an example, I've been running 42# injectors on an N/A M20 for years. It definitely does not run rich, because it's tuned for them. All that happens with a larger injector is your maximum pulsewidth and injector duty cycle goes down for the same AFR. If I go up a mountain the ECU is measuring the air mass so it automatically injects less fuel as air density decreases. This isn't rocket science..

[BMW_TUNER]

I totally agree that it is possible to tune 24lbs down in theory bu without afr's there is no way to know if the TRM is doing it or not. It appears that my setup is not as good as my brothers so I am going to move towards a known good setup at altitude, the TMS with 21.5. I could probably pick up a TMS chip to work with my injectors but I would rather scale down the injectors and pick up some fresh ones anyway. there is nothing wring with my injectors or chip I just think they are not an ideal combo for altitude.

[nando]

I'm telling you the altitude doesn't matter. it could be that the combo just isn't working well, period. truthfully, there's little reason to put 24# injectors on an S52 to begin with.