S54 advice and considerations

[nando]

I guess it's not truely "32" bit, but I think we should know better from the days of 8-16-32-64 bit video games that a wider bus width doesn't neccesarily mean better.

DIY says it's dual core. I don't really think it matters - it's definitely capable.

from a wiki link:

The current Megasquirt-III uses a 16bit MC9S12XEP100 processor running at 50 MHz which includes a 100 MHz RISC core.

[matt]

More powerful to what effect? The Saturn V rockets were launched with 2048Khz, 8 bit CPU's and that turned out pretty well.

My working theory is that most of the extra power of modern ECUs is to satisfy OBDII emission requirements. Individual cylinder misfire detection is a good example.

Well, specifically in the MSS54 one CPU controls the same stuff as any other engine (fuel and spark) and the other one manages the VANOS.

MS3 has a dual core 32bit CPU. :p

MSS54 is impressive, but it's still 10 year old tech..

Are you sure? It doesn't look like much and I can't find ANY details.

[nando]

I'm planning on using a combo of alpha-N and MAP. Day to day driveability is important to me.

The big problem I see with alpha-N only is 100% throttle isn't neccesarily full load. Sometimes you can reach full load before 100% throttle.. sometimes other factors mean load is less than 100% when throttle is maxed out. Works fine on race cars and occasional weekend cars, but not my first choice for a daily driver.

I have zero interest in going over 150mph.. or even 150mph. that's like the top of 4th, which I doubt I'll ever see. Not unless I decide to do some salt flat racing. :p

[Wanganstyle]

For the record, the DTA S100 has a single ST10 (16 bit) CPU in it. The MSS54 has two 32bit CPUs. Much more powerful.

yes, but I can't control MSS54, nor is anyone willing to deliver a commercial hack solution for it.
This is why I spent money @ ABL and bought the DTA S100 for my last S54 install.


***

if you can make it (mss54) work alpha N with analog throttle and build a GUI to allow owner self-adjustment, you will immediately have my order :) -it can be just as crude as UK GUI programming :P

For some users this is the catch, at the $10K power transplant price range a couple more K for full control is not even a question for my application.... I'd run a standalone on S52 if I had to run one long term.

Adaptability is important all around the world as fuel, conditions is all different- Mechanical tune does matter when considering pure alpha N, aero and gearing matter. HFM installation would be ideal for OEM style tuning; hacking MSS54 to run like the CSL MAP/baro only setup if possible would prove very popular I'm sure.

My Cali 91 garbage octane stress+ wangan high load mapping (150-170mph over) is not even possible in many parts of the USA due to road limitations. Also, how is a tuner going to release a true alpha N tune as a blanket commercial map? I don't think this is possible-

Alpha N is electronic carburation; its not nearly as perfect as running the OEM HFM setup, it cannot be metered perfect like an HFM would read.

Few in the midwest, east coast, southern parts will be able/willing to load and stress tune like this - its risky. Just like dyno queen cars blow up, top end speed cars blow up also!

dyno mapping won't nearly be useful at 170mph over as road mapping, there are not that many roads stateside where you can do a fully loaded uphill climb through esses at 150-170mph speeds. Even some reputable local dyno tuners are afraid of serious wangan speeds/stress and tuning (i.e. 150++ mph over, they often keep top speed limiters)

[Jason89i]

I'm running an s54 in my e30 m3. After a lot of thought, I ended up using the DTA management from alex at ABL. He also has a really slick cable throttle solution. Cheers, Jason

[nando]

More powerful to what effect? The Saturn V rockets were launched with 2048Khz, 8 bit CPU's and that turned out pretty well.

My working theory is that most of the extra power of modern ECUs is to satisfy OBDII emission requirements. Individual cylinder misfire detection is a good example.

I think the S54 ECU goes beyond that, it actually models the engine's torque output, and uses DBW to give linear torque response from the throttle input. Compared to a standard ECU, that simply takes a set of inputs, and then outputs based on a set of assumptions and a couple maps. it appears smart, but is actually pretty dumb.

Engine modeling is the future but I don't think standalones are there yet. Probably modern OE ECU's are though. if BMW was doing it 10 years ago with an M car, I'm thinking their standard ECU's are doing it now.

[nando]

Did you get it just for the connector? Can I have the PCB? I have more of those connectors also if you want them.

For the record, the DTA S100 has a single ST10 (16 bit) CPU in it. The MSS54 has two 32bit CPUs. Much more powerful.

I was planning on using some of the PCB; possibly the drivers for the VANOS solenoids, definitely the coil drivers, some of the relay circuits, etc. I'd also like to set up a bench test and see what I can learn from it. I don't know if you'd want any of the leftover bits? I won't be using the CPU for sure.

MS3 has a dual core 32bit CPU. :p

MSS54 is impressive, but it's still 10 year old tech..

[hoveringuy]

For the record, the DTA S100 has a single ST10 (16 bit) CPU in it. The MSS54 has two 32bit CPUs. Much more powerful.

More powerful to what effect? The Saturn V rockets were launched with 2048Khz, 8 bit CPU's and that turned out pretty well.

My working theory is that most of the extra power of modern ECUs is to satisfy OBDII emission requirements. Individual cylinder misfire detection is a good example.

[matt]

Did you get it just for the connector? Can I have the PCB? I have more of those connectors also if you want them.

For the record, the DTA S100 has a single ST10 (16 bit) CPU in it. The MSS54 has two 32bit CPUs. Much more powerful.

[nando]

I went ahead and picked up an MSS54 ECU. don't hate me for destroying it. :p

[nando]

With a standalone, you pay more, but you also get more. Traction control, DA, full throttle shifting, launch control.... etc etc etc...but best of all, tune it yourself if you want....you have full control with your lap top... modifying ANY aspect of the engine performance is a no brainer.

The independence that you get with a standalone is simply unparalleled.

Our recent foray into Traction Control has been a stellar success...and trust me, when you drop even a stock S54 with no bolt ons, and start at 315-320 at the rears, or bolt stuff on, and go to nearly 360 at the rears, you WILL appreciate having some TC available.

By the way, Jason and Jeff, local friends/customers should be added of course to the list of well executed S54 transplants on standalone...in E30 M3's of course.

For what its worth, I'm pretty backed up on orders currently, and it will be at least a couple of weeks before I could fairly even take on new orders for custom harnesses. But the DBW delete kits are available now, we are CNC machining the important bit, and it came out really, really nicely.


(see Rose in S14.net)

If you tackle a standalone on your own, make sure that the shop you go to for tuning has actual experience with starting from scratch on a standalone trying to map out 4 major maps simultaneously, fuel, timing, cam1 & cam2 for vanos... they're all interelated, and changing one obviously means that the other three are not necessarily optimized anymore. Do NOT assume that a "base map" you get from the manufacturer contains anything more that very, very basic configuration material, like tooth counts and angles for sensors etc... and for sure don't trust those either, they may not be correct.

standalone is definitely better from the engine's point of view. But it's definitely not for everyone. Especially since people don't want to share tunes they've spent a couple thousand in gas/dyno time on, you have a significant expense there. I'm budgeting for about 8 hours on the dyno to get things down (some can be done on the street but lots can't).

and yeah, don't trust base maps at all! I looked at a few base maps for the S54, not even one of them had the correct tooth #1 angle! they were all off 2-4 degrees. This is true of any standalone though, and not just for the S54. It's rare that somebody has the expertise to figure out all the little details, so they just guess or trust that the other guy got it right.

[Wanganstyle]

for one looking to shove in a S54 and just drive it; you want OEM e-throttle adaptation and OEM brain.
These clients are not desiring nor prepared to handle tuning time and tuning $$$$/pain.

If desired to play the standalone ecu game, ABL is a very excellent choice. I spent my own money there.

[Teaguer]

Alex, what would it cost for me to get a DBW harness/ecu from you, would that be 1,500$ or more?

I'll try to call you later to ask more specific questions.

Right now, personally i am trying to get as much knowledge about the electronics as i can. I think i will be buying a harness from someone, but with that being said i would like to know what is available and realistic to be an educated consumer if you will.

There are lots of answers regarding the available options and pricing in this very thread.

Alex offers a harness to run a standalone DTA EMS. He doesn't offer reflashed stock DME's.

Expect to pay $2k for the required DTA box.

The absolute cheapest way to run a S54 in an e30 is to have the stock DME flashed in Germany coupled with a modified harness sourced from the UK or Bimmerworld.

The smartest as well as being cost effective is to get a harness from Alex coupled with the DTA EMS.

Not really gonna get cheaper than those two options right now.

[Wanganstyle]

Thought I'd chime in as I'm mentioned in several locations....

With a standalone, you pay more, but you also get more. Traction control, DA, full throttle shifting, launch control.... etc etc etc...but best of all, tune it yourself if you want....you have full control with your lap top... modifying ANY aspect of the engine performance is a no brainer.

Standalone allows the owner to extract POWER from the S54. No way that stock ecu can do the same thing, its not a standalone-

My DTA S100 allowed me to dyno test every single injector and coil pack, also osiliscope the sensors - this is not average equipment!!!

I don't understand why people all gripe at the cost, its expensive to extract power, and wiring is hard work!!

[dakon]

Alex, what would it cost for me to get a DBW harness/ecu from you, would that be 1,500$ or more?

I'll try to call you later to ask more specific questions.

Right now, personally i am trying to get as much knowledge about the electronics as i can. I think i will be buying a harness from someone, but with that being said i would like to know what is available and realistic to be an educated consumer if you will.