S54 advice and considerations

[hoveringuy]

This plot is kind of interesting.. it was a mistake in programming one of my advance profiles on the intake cam. Intake cam went from full retard to full advance for a period of 500 rpms.

Kind of startled me and I didn't realize what happened until a few hours after the session. It's loud when it does that..

Plot shows that power instantly went down by 25 hp and 25 torques. It went back up 35hp!

Waviness of the plots is because I was on a 4wd dyno and I was driving the front rollers but the link belt wasn't tensioned right.

[Bimmerman325i]

^agreed entirely. They have a solution that they know how to use and tune, and it works well for them. It's just not what I'd use.

My understanding is that Alex has a pretty slick knock sensor solution for his DTA kits. I didn't know they couldn't use MAFs though. Hm.

[DaveSmed]

You cannot blame VAC; they are selling a complete package they know to work 100% similar to Bimmerworld, ABL etc......

Very true, and that certainly is necessary to maintain a decent reputation, but I just wish it offered more for the money. VAC, more specifically Steve Bailey has always done right by me even when dealing with a really shitty situation regarding an order I placed, paid for and their supplier went under after they paid them! That and he's an E30 guy to boot.


As far as the DTA, you are %100 correct, no knock, basically an electronic carburetor (AlphaN... I want my MAF!), buggy poor GUI, somewhat cryptic manuals..... It certainly is not perfect, but for the price and the capability, I'm satisfied with it.

[Bimmerman325i]

Bimmerman,

Your previous dyno plot showing VANOS disconnected and VANOS active seems completely hosed; it looks like VANOS is locked in the retarded position because the low-end plots match well... dropoff is at higher rpms. I would rather see the comparison with the cams locked in the advanced position, where the the differnce on the low end wouldn't be as substantial.

Nonetheless, I had a dyno run where I mistakenly programmed a glitch into my VANOS controller and the cams slammed from one extreme to the other for 500 rpms... the drop in power was substantial.

I'll need to find that because it show really well how effective VANOS can be.

The first plot is of the same car running MOTEC standalone with VANOS enabled in all three curves. The different curves are of specific detunes to meet racing class hp/wt goals. He has selectable tunes. He can actively choose which tune he is running in real-time.

The MOTEC's control over VANOS lets him cut off high rpm power so that he has max torque everywhere else until he maxes out the hp/wt limit for GTS4 racing. He then can flick a switch or load a different map into the ecu to run an optimized tune for another racing class.

I was half asleep when I wrote the first post, my intention was to show what is possible curve-wise by electronically manipulating the VANOS to achieve certain goals.

[hoveringuy]

Bimmerman,

Your previous dyno plot showing VANOS disconnected and VANOS active seems completely hosed; it looks like VANOS is locked in the advanced position because the low-end plots match well... dropoff is at higher rpms. I would rather see the comparison with the cams locked in the advanced position, where the the differnce on the low end wouldn't be as substantial.

Nonetheless, I had a dyno run where I mistakenly programmed a glitch into my VANOS controller and the cams slammed from one extreme to the other for 500 rpms... the drop in power was substantial.

I'll need to find that because it show really well how effective VANOS can be.

[Bimmerman325i]

do you happen to have one of the s54 motor tuned by same tuner/ems with VAC delete vs OEM active vanos? it would be really neat to see where the vanos is making power happen with the same tuner behind it.

Unfortunately I don't, sorry. I only know of that dyno for that car. I've also looked for dynos of the VAC/KMS/Schrick setup, but can only find "oh I make 330whp ;)" kind of statements.

However, here's a dyno of an E30 M3 with S54 swap running the factory MSS54 computer with vanos enabled, on an Epic Motorsports tune. Bone stock internals in the motor but it has intake/exhaust mods.



The dyno numbers are lower than many I've seen with similar exhaust/intake mods, but the important take-away is the shape of the powerband. Holy flat torque, Batman!

Vanos is good.

[Wanganstyle]

realized the dyno I posted wasn't showing up, so I fixed it.

do you happen to have one of the s54 motor tuned by same tuner/ems with VAC delete vs OEM active vanos? it would be really neat to see where the vanos is making power happen with the same tuner behind it.

[Bimmerman325i]

realized the dyno I posted wasn't showing up, so I fixed it.

[nando]

Simply put, vanos lets you perfect cam timing at every rpm and load of the engine. Anything you can do with locked cams, you can do with vanos. The only big difference is the amount of tuning involved, but i'm thinking it wont be that bad with some additional data & knowledge. Its like being ale to pick a different cam for idle, mid range and high rpm - no compromises!

[Wanganstyle]

They tried their damnedest to sell me on that setup too (KMS+cams+Vanos delete) For the price involved, standalone vs. standalone, you would have to be nuts to pick the KMS from VAC over the DTA. It's a nice unit and all, but the DTA is much nicer, can run Vanos, traction+launch control, etc... All for similar coin. Add in the cost of cams and the Vanos delete....

You cannot blame VAC; they are selling a complete package they know to work 100% similar to Bimmerworld, ABL etc.

This is simple business for all parties: they are professionals providing solutions.

A Set of items/w/ matched procedure/solution becomes more than the sum of the products. Many VAC haters out there, that do still run VAC items. Many Bimmerworld haters, many people who do not understand the quirks of the DTA standalone like to hate on it or tout its greatness.

Out of couriosity, have you tuned the DTA personally? ...





You know it has no native knock sensors or Knock control right?

I had to remove ALL 3 of my OEM s54 knock sensors. knock output was useless to the DTA natively.

Adding knock control is Possible via aftermarket box yes, but not $0!!!!







Traction control could easily be done with existing dedicated systems such as Racelogic, IF the team was running one already I would see no reason to remove it and start a whole new mess of worms.

DTA Is not the easiest item to tune.....or setup.....or wire.....or fire the car up!!!!!!!!!!! the instructions are in UK english and confusing (I am an American as most on usa based sites are)

Link G4 can run full Double vanos with standard S54 maps built in; Full tuning support stateside by dyno shops as Link has tuning shops with dynos stateside.

So can other ecu's (pro efi ala HPF), Maximum PSI on the east coast is also hacking the Stock MSS54 DME for BOOST!


Reference the 90's till now history of Japanese tuning:

One very powerful, famous, well supported product -Just NOT in usa: the HKS F-CON.
Commonly used out of the usa, finding a good F-con tuner stateside will cost you BANK on tuning, and the setup will be 2X as difficult as a similar pnp setup device (Power FC).

The lower end Product (apex power FC) was much more popular as the items were plug and play with OEM maps and had factory OEM support on all mapping. HKS F-con has some but is not nearly as user friendly, thus the market went to APEX.

As far as HKS reputation; its unparalleled. So unparalleled that the american market cannot afford it and HKS USA is closing.

For one particular standalone to be leaps and bounds above another it needs support like AEM EMS. AEM stormed the market with full GUI AEM EMS and plug and play support/mapping for tons of applications. It will be interesting to see what happens with AEM gets into the double vanos tuning game....I would bet this will happen SOON.

AEM = Best tuning support in history so far IMO. Also, they are in CA and can prepare for poop 91 octane /smog games. Potential hands down Winner for west coast applications



One other issue of vanos delete that comes to mind:

if you are building the motor, you need the vanos setup tools. Some teams running on e36 engine budgets may not have an extra lump $,$$$ of money to buy the tool set for cam/Double vanos; I was fortunate enough to be able to tear down my S54 @ BMW. IF you delete the double vanos the setting tool obviously wont be needed.

These perhaps are moot issues, but possibly important for a race team.

[DaveSmed]

...I'll put it this way. VAC commonly swaps cammed S54s with vanos deleted because their favored standalone doesn't do vanos...

They tried their damnedest to sell me on that setup too (KMS+cams+Vanos delete) For the price involved, standalone vs. standalone, you would have to be nuts to pick the KMS from VAC over the DTA. It's a nice unit and all, but the DTA is much nicer, can run Vanos, traction+launch control, etc... All for similar coin. Add in the cost of cams and the Vanos delete....

[Wanganstyle]

Only misinformed people or those on a severe budget delete VANOS on an S54 swap.

yes, budget is one of the biggest concerns in racing.

Racing = burning $$$$$.

IF a team has a chassis running with XYZ standalone already running a non-S54, kills a motor and replaces dead motor with S54 mid season....add up the time/expense to solve issues of harness, changing standalone (and possibly dyno tuning)- there you have it.

IF XYZ Race team is sponsored/supported/funded etc by XYZ standalone and XYZ dyno tuner/shop..... easy reasons why to delete vanos.


Vanos is a very nice technological advancement.

[Bimmerman325i]

1) wtf is "Wangan" ?? This has been confusing me for a while.

2) This is why you want full double vanos: you have incredible control over the motor.

Related thread: Locked Vanos or Active Vanos for Club Racing

That said, we ran the S54 without VANOS for quite some time before strapping on the MOTEC and hooking the VANOS back up. When we switched, the only addition we made to the motor was a CF intake box, so we don't have a direct comparison, but I am a true believer in VANOS...even more so than when we made the switch to VANOS on the old S50B32. We made a similar change with our old S50B32, running it with and without VANOS, but also did some additional changes to the motor when the VANOS was added.

In both cases, there's no denying the benefits of the changed torque curve either on paper or in the way the car drove/felt on the track. It's like night and day...no comparison. I have a hard time believing a carbon intake box made the difference between Stickley absolutely walking us on the straights (as seen in vidoes I've posted in the past) and us being able to keep up with him out of the hole until the very top end where his additional hp comes into play. The shape of the torque curve and the area under the curve absolutely changed the way our car feels.

B Watts' car, S54 with VANOS enabled.

Green is the CM/GTS5 tune. Blue is a "rain" tune (that also includes some changes to the throttle pedal curve). Red is the GTS4 tune.

You DEFINITELY want VANOS active. Manipulating the VANOS maps allows for full electronic tuning/detuning as shown by Watts' dyno graph (FWIW, he runs MOTEC, but DTA can do the same), and is why Epic Motorsports tunes are far and away the best stock DME tune on the market.

I'll put it this way. VAC commonly swaps cammed S54s with vanos deleted because their favored standalone doesn't do vanos. General whp range: 320-330whp on 91/93 octane.

Bone stock (internally) S54s on BW/Epic Motorsports tune OR Alex L's standalone kit are putting out 315-330whp WITH VANOS enabled, ebay headers, and not terribly free flowing midsections/catbacks. Guys with 3" or 3.5" exhaust and Supersprint stepped headers are getting 340-360whp without cams, on 91/93 octane.

Want to take bets on which solution (VANOS vs non) has more torque everywhere and thus is a much faster car?

Only misinformed people or those on a severe budget delete VANOS on an S54 swap.

[Wanganstyle]

Alex Lipowich's DTA plug and play kit is THE WAY to go if you're swapping an S54 into any OBDI car.

You DO NOT want to delete the VANOS, to swap the S54 and delete the VANOS makes the entire swap a pointless waste of money. The VANOS is what allows the engine to have a powerband.

Overly blanket statement. Vanos delete is not a bad idea for race teams that do not have the budget to maintain the vanos units and dyno tune to suit. The double vanos gearbox is also additional weight on the top of the cylinder head and very front facing, it also requires an additional oil pressure accumulator mounted on the side of engine. If very weight sensitive one may have preference to delete it, removal of the double vanos system arguably may alot more oil pressure distribution for the rest of the engine. The dual vanos unit also runs on a 4 solinoid system (4x the single vanos), has a higher output alternator spec'ed than standard non double vanos cars.

DTA standalone is not for NOOBS or people with out a professional tuner / means to hire one.

Stock ecu is always going to be "the way" if there is such a thing as "the way".

This having been said I did purchase a DTA from ABL for my own s54 project, very reputable vendor to work with.

Can we try not to drive this off topic? If you wish to discuss driving at triple digit speeds, start a new thread. Lets keep this as an S54 discussion.

That was original intent until our easily excited friend desired derailment

If one plays with vanos timing on standalone you can mimic deleted vanos, somebody with time and a dyno should pull the same car back to back with that intent and post the results.

Local guys in the German touring car series are using dual vanos settings to DECREASE RWHP because the classing is determined by power to weight. Locals with lightweight weapons are having s54's tuned to put down s52 rwhp numbers and have really flat torque bands. That would be one expensive and effective way to battle somebody (ON TRACK) with a tuned up S50/52 US.

a S54b32 tuned to match S52b32 US power in a e36M racing body will be able to create more torque across a broader power band and go higher RPM in each gear; allowing for the chassis to setup for very short gearing or longer gearing with less gears.

At least from my own observations stateside one E46M track car current trend is ZF 5 speed swap - yes, down grade from 6 speed Getrag to 5 speed ZF gearbox- to save weight.

This is real Local news from local guys I have talked to in person doing wheel to wheel battle on track. Many SF bay area people are serious about motorsports enough to purchase ex grand am cup chassis to run as privateers.

Imagine the advantage of s54 De-Tuned to s52 "rwhp" with an additional amount of s54 torque in the powerband. s54 car vs s52 car, both same RWHP but one has 1,000rpm extra rpm avail to use. Ferrari value logic of xx hp per/1,000 rpm additional extra at redline could possibly apply here. Obviously those with switchable mapping like STi/EVO's with cobb accessport etc may cheat.

For bay area locals Vic Sias tunes s54 on electromotive; vanos deleted, he races one locally.

REBELLO racing locally will also build and dyno tune s54 for you.

[nando]

Can we try not to drive this off topic? If you wish to discuss driving at triple digit speeds, start a new thread. Lets keep this as an S54 discussion.