S54 advice and considerations

[Wanganstyle]

Once again, I think you're missing the fundamentals. PUBLIC roads are NOT meant for you're stupid Wangan, wannabe Tokyo racing bullshit. I don't care how safe you think you can drive your car at those speeds. If you have to hit the brakes or make a quick maneuver at 150+ mph, you'll be killed, no question. If you take another person's life as a result, your family will deal with the consequences. Why the hell do you need to go so fast anyway?

What track has a long enough straight away for you to realistically hit those speeds? I'd understand if you had a time attack car that was making 500+whp/wtq, and you were testing ON A TRACK. But your s54, with even 350whp, wont reach 150+ on any straight away, at any track in CA. :roll:

I had respect for you before you started posting this top speed nonsense. If you want to race Wangan style, or hit some Wangan speeds, go move to Tokyo or Germany. :down:

Who is "racing"?? nobody is racing at crazy high speed. You drive those speeds simply because you enjoy doing it, no need to race on a public road, my slicks cost too much and are on the shelf for track days.

Who said I was looking for only 350rwhp in my s54? I am also building a full out hillclimb car for an S54. Private issue.

Public events like the silver state allow roadgoing cars to do V-max. Legally.

I am actually flying to Asia next week and will be doing some V-max.

lets quit the top end speed discussion; pointless.

[nando]

what condition wouldn't it be good for? you can have optimum cam timing for every point of the engine's operation. that's huge!

I'd think race teams would remove it because they don't care about idle quality or torque levels at 3000rpm. it's just one more thing that needs tuned and maintained.

[Jean]

Alex Lipowich's DTA plug and play kit is THE WAY to go if you're swapping an S54 into any OBDI car.

You DO NOT want to delete the VANOS, to swap the S54 and delete the VANOS makes the entire swap a pointless waste of money. The VANOS is what allows the engine to have a powerband.

To say something like that ^ w/o any facts or dyno sheets isn't very accurate?

If vanos was so great FOR ALL CONDITIONS, you wouldn't see race teams who I am pretty sure can afford vanos BS to remove it.

[Roland H]

Alex Lipowich's DTA plug and play kit is THE WAY to go if you're swapping an S54 into any OBDI car.

You DO NOT want to delete the VANOS, to swap the S54 and delete the VANOS makes the entire swap a pointless waste of money. The VANOS is what allows the engine to have a powerband.

[nando]

yeah, but that's a race engine. you don't neccesarily give up peak HP without vanos, but you definitely give up low end torque and idle quality.

[Dean]

I'm not sure what position the S54 VANOS will default to when disconnected.

Here is an engine currently for sale within the UK which has been de-vanos'd

It is running 386bhp and here is the advert

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listing/37203/bmw_e46_m3_s54_race_engine_with_loom_and_motorsport_ecu.html

Looking at the car next week with the engine in advert

[nando]

I'm not sure what position the S54 VANOS will default to when disconnected.

I don't know either but I'd like to know.

[e30polak]

to each his own-

I feel the Factory designed the E36 and E28 with 160-170mph speed ranges in mind. its easily within range of STOCK s38b35, and I'm sure a stock S50b32 can do it also.

The expressway system here was designed with high speeds in mind, there are quite a few sections where a pedestrian e39 or even e34/e32 can turn in to high speed esses and stay perfectly planted in its own lane at 140-150mph speed zone. Socal "freeways" are a different story. You would fly off the road at these speeds on some sections of I-405 etc...

e36M/28M feel pretty stable in 160-170's.

Once again, I think you're missing the fundamentals. PUBLIC roads are NOT meant for you're stupid Wangan, wannabe Tokyo racing bullshit. I don't care how safe you think you can drive your car at those speeds. If you have to hit the brakes or make a quick maneuver at 150+ mph, you'll be killed, no question. If you take another person's life as a result, your family will deal with the consequences. Why the hell do you need to go so fast anyway?

What track has a long enough straight away for you to realistically hit those speeds? I'd understand if you had a time attack car that was making 500+whp/wtq, and you were testing ON A TRACK. But your s54, with even 350whp, wont reach 150+ on any straight away, at any track in CA. :roll:

I had respect for you before you started posting this top speed nonsense. If you want to race Wangan style, or hit some Wangan speeds, go move to Tokyo or Germany. :down:

[hoveringuy]

So, are you guys saying removing vanos WILL result in less power uptop too? I thought it was low-end only?

Depends on how you set your static cam timing. With factory static timing, removing VANOS generally loses low end.

I'm not sure what position the S54 VANOS will default to when disconnected.

[Jean]

So, are you guys saying removing vanos WILL result in less power uptop too? I thought it was low-end only?

[nando]

while exhaust isn't as effective, that's not to say you can't use it for more power. BMW probably didn't for emissions reasons. But basically you can adjust it for the LSA - tighter at high RPM, wider at low RPM. the exhaust timing could also be tuned to your headers/exhaust (maximizing scavenging efficiency, without having intake air sucked out of the head) - a bit of a dark science, I suppose.

[hoveringuy]

the vanos is making more tq happen until near 6k rpm where it goes to high cam mode for induction max power max lift

Local fully prepped track e36m with S54 VAC motor (and vanos deleted) wishes it had vanos. Obviously this is not Needed, the car pulls enough g's to shat 1x wet sump vac motor, but vanos is nice.

the S54 has really nasty cams, so the vanos is negating that when working. Kinda like mimic-ing the economy lobes on a b16a Vtec

I think you're confusing Vtec with VANOS.

The whole point of VANOS is that it maximises cylinder filling at all speeds and loads.

At lower rpms the intake cam is advanced which increases dynamic compression (valve closes earlier in the upstroke) but doesn't take advantage of ram air effect.

At higher rpms the retarded setting takes advantage of ram effect.

exhaust isn't as effective as intake.

Deleting VANOS will lose power at high or low rpms, take your pick.

[nando]

Since this is commonly done on pure race cars, does the engine lose a lot of torque w/o vanos? I mean enough that it's worth the trouble in terms of tuning?

It can't be THAT much, can it? On the m62tu with vanos disconnected it's noticable at in stop and go, but once you are going no difference and this is a 4.4l v8...so how big of a difference is there on s54 or the euro b32?

of course it does, but a race car doesn't need torque like a street car (in the low end). It just needs a lot of power, you'll spend all your time in the powerband anyway. the nice thing about double VANOS is you can adjust the cam timing for a nice, smooth idle, and lots of smooth low end torque, and then readjust for peak RPM power. That's why an M20 has a "hump" for a torque curve and an S54 is basically flat.

S54 cams are indeed gnarly.


makes my schrick look wimpy, and stock S52 cams look absolutely silly. I can't imagine wasting $4000 on a cam upgrade..

[Dean]

:stupid:

You are retarded for taking an e36 and an e28 at those speeds, let alone wanting to try in an e30! Just because the car has the power to do so, doesn't mean it was engineered to do so. Won't be so funny if something fails at those speeds because the factory didn't design it to handle the stress of those speeds. :down:

I don't care how set-up you car is, it's not a good idea. It wont be so funny if you lose control and kill yourself or other innocent people now will it? :roll:

Also road tuning at 150+? Npo matter how late at night/early in the morning, you're never truly alone on public roads! :loco:

Ok I agree with this statement, BUT I also want to add my point to it...

I live in the UK where we have of the best roads in the world, you've all played Colin McRae rally on the playstation and driven the UK lol. Some of the roads are amazing BUT we have a 70mph MAX limit on open freeway, 60mph on normal roads, most cars exceed this figure with ease and safely these days. The Mini Cooper (new shape 2007 model) I use from time to time, will sit happily at 100+ mph and feel as stable and as quiet as if it were doing 70mph. Ok, back to my view.

Road running at above 100mph is dangerous YES, but my E36 has been set up to drive at higher speeds with ease and on a motorway/Autobahn/expressway I corner at 150mph with no problems and the tires don't scream, its about being fluid with the wheel and just looking ahead at problems.

Ok, I travel to Germany ALOT and the Autobahn in most sections has no speed limit, drive as fast as you feel able. Here is my E36 328iSE in Germany! I spend most of my time at the Nürburgring! Thats what my car is set up for...tight fast and twisty sections of racetrack. It has better than OEM, suspension, wheels, stiffer tires with amazing grip, uprated brakes and chassis is stiffer and so on.

I sit at 140mph everywhere, even VMax it a few times too and its not even in redline...155mph indicated and 151mph on GPRS



I deem this as safe I'm in full control and other drivers around me are aware of the speeds allowed to be travelled and as a result everything is so much more civilized than going fast and slowing down because the cops may have a speed trap ahead. I do however not agree with a rusted banger hitting VMax fully loaded with 4 mates in the back showing off that ''Oh I can drive fast''.

:hitler: Sorry as I was talking about Germany Hitler seemed approriate lol

Anyway back to my S54 project considerations, I wouldn't consider thinking about installing an S54 into a car that wasn't able to cope and be safe with that type of power IF I wasn't sure of the engineering behind it all. I got into thinking that I wouldn't feel safe doing over 140mph in my E30, but I feel comfortable doing 150+mph (when its legal) in the E36. Then again the E30 DTM cars of the early 90's were topping out close to 190mph on the Nurburburgring races on those days...so it has been done before.


P.S this E30 a mate in Germany is faster than my car, he travels at over 150+mph in it...a S14 race engine pushing out 245bhp!!! My E36 is on right.





That engine was a consideration before the S54 came to mind!!! It seems a bit off topic but I think its fair that everyone has their say on this type of project. I wouldn't do it, IF I wasn't going to use it.

so how big of a difference is there on s54 or the euro b32?

The Euro B32 is an easy enough swap but I've seen so many that I want something unique, you can buy a complete E36 M3 (thats Everything on the car) for 2000 BGP at the moment as insurance is so high and petrol prices are high. The Euro B32 is 316bhp (321PS not many people know that) standard! But the S54 is an animal is a E30/E36 and as I say can be mapped to 350bhp with ease! 1300kg and 350bhp! Goodbye lambourgini's and Subarus! The S54 is in truth an exciting prospect. In fact I have driven a few E36 Euro 3.2's and with the 6 speed tranny they don't feel any quicker than my 328iSE, thats why I never bought one in first place. S54 will be the new S50 soon anyway as the E36 M3 engines will all dry up and become hard to get a hold of one day anyway.

[Wanganstyle]

the vanos is making more tq happen until near 6k rpm where it goes to high cam mode for induction max power max lift

Local fully prepped track e36m with S54 VAC motor (and vanos deleted) wishes it had vanos. Obviously this is not Needed, the car pulls enough g's to shat 1x wet sump vac motor, but vanos is nice.

the S54 has really nasty cams, so the vanos is negating that when working. Kinda like mimic-ing the economy lobes on a b16a Vtec