S54 advice and considerations

[M3 euro ltw]

Apples and Oranges

Thought I'd chime in as I'm mentioned in several locations....

First of all, the idea the idea that you might spend $900 on a flashed DME for a transplant is hugely appealing obviously.

On an E30, there is no diagnostic plug you need to retain (like E36) and you could wire up very easily a modified E46 harness to run things. Just keep in mind some technical issues, like the chassis plugs that go into the DME won't be coming with the engine etc, and you'll need to buy pedal hardware/wires plugs etc, and install that for DBW....

But, you're also sort of stuck now with tuning. In UK, you may be able to visit a rolling road easily enough and fine tune each time you want to improve performance via headers, cams, intake changes etc.... a bit of a PIA to modify the code. Not as easy in the US, though EPIC can flash and tune the stock DME...

With a standalone, you pay more, but you also get more. Traction control, DA, full throttle shifting, launch control.... etc etc etc...but best of all, tune it yourself if you want....you have full control with your lap top... modifying ANY aspect of the engine performance is a no brainer.

The independence that you get with a standalone is simply unparalleled.

Our recent foray into Traction Control has been a stellar success...and trust me, when you drop even a stock S54 with no bolt ons, and start at 315-320 at the rears, or bolt stuff on, and go to nearly 360 at the rears, you WILL appreciate having some TC available.

By the way, Jason and Jeff, local friends/customers should be added of course to the list of well executed S54 transplants on standalone...in E30 M3's of course.

For what its worth, I'm pretty backed up on orders currently, and it will be at least a couple of weeks before I could fairly even take on new orders for custom harnesses. But the DBW delete kits are available now, we are CNC machining the important bit, and it came out really, really nicely.


(see Rose in S14.net)

If you tackle a standalone on your own, make sure that the shop you go to for tuning has actual experience with starting from scratch on a standalone trying to map out 4 major maps simultaneously, fuel, timing, cam1 & cam2 for vanos... they're all interelated, and changing one obviously means that the other three are not necessarily optimized anymore. Do NOT assume that a "base map" you get from the manufacturer contains anything more that very, very basic configuration material, like tooth counts and angles for sensors etc... and for sure don't trust those either, they may not be correct.

[Leo_328i]

Lack of stepless dual VANOS? I would argue that the S54 is even easier to implement than the M54 because the M54 uses only ONE solenoid per cam, akin to a seal balancing a beachball on its nose. Control-wise it's difficult.

The S54 uses TWO solenoids per cam, one drain and one fill. Relatively easy to track and position the cam. Plus high pressure translates the cam quicker.

As far as tuning, once you've established the optimum advance/retard schedules for the cams and use them consistently, it becomes completely transparent to the problem of tuning. The position of the cams just influences cylinder filling. You're left with fuel and spark.

If I were to do this with a 413 I would do the following:

-run the engine at 3,5 bar with S52 injectors. Could always be changed later.
-Use complete S50 harness.
-complete OBD1 sensors, MAF, etc. 3.5" MAF, no doubt. M50 throttle body signal would need to come from the ITB. I think the S54 even has a VR crank sender, right?
-Control cams independently. That's been proven.
-Translate the intake cam signal into a faux M50 signal that the ECU would recognize. That would take about 2% of the overhead on my processor..
-E throttle? I've even done that on the M54 and it worked great. I have that solution ready to go. Again, S54 is easier becase it doesn't have the limp-home detent that M54 TB has. Some of you even played with it a the e30 picnic last year.. remember the demo at Griot's and James' ?

If you do this and make it work, your name will be in the same list as Lincoln, Patton, Einstein and Mandela.

[AlpineS50E30]

there are many options ...(depending on what you wanna spend).........my father has done a e30 me s54 swap with stock ecu......(bimmerworld software).....it runs perfect!!!
he's now doing 2 others(one of them his own).....with same software ...except he found someone in the uk to do it for less !!!!!!!!!!......he did not modify the engine harness....just the c101...the first car is on you tube (e30 s54)....red m3...check it out

[nando]

Lack of stepless dual VANOS? I would argue that the S54 is even easier to implement than the M54 because the M54 uses only ONE solenoid per cam, akin to a seal balancing a beachball on its nose. Control-wise it's difficult.

The S54 uses TWO solenoids per cam, one drain and one fill. Relatively easy to track and position the cam. Plus high pressure translates the cam quicker.

I agree. It's like a 2 wire ICV vs a 3 wire. better control, faster response. And, I really mean native control. I don't doubt the ability of your controllers!

As far as tuning, once you've established the optimum advance/retard schedules for the cams and use them consistently, it becomes completely transparent to the problem of tuning. The position of the cams just influences cylinder filling. You're left with fuel and spark.

right, but injector opening time (really injector end of pulse timing) is based off the position of the intake valve opening in relation to the crank. Having it all built in one ECU means you can adjust the valve timing, and the injector timing adjusts automatically. you can do it after you've played with VANOS, it will just take longer because injector timing can affect the AFR even with the same VE.

If I were to do this with a 413 I would do the following:

-run the engine at 3,5 bar with S52 injectors. Could always be changed later.
-Use complete S50 harness.
-complete OBD1 sensors, MAF, etc. 3.5" MAF, no doubt. M50 throttle body signal would need to come from the ITB. I think the S54 even has a VR crank sender, right?
-Control cams independently. That's been proven.
-Translate the intake cam signal into a faux M50 signal that the ECU would recognize. That would take about 2% of the overhead on my processor..
-E throttle? I've even done that on the M54 and it worked great. I have that solution ready to go. Again, S54 is easier becase it doesn't have the limp-home detent that M54 TB has. Some of you even played with it a the e30 picnic last year.. remember the demo at Griot's and James' ?

do it! the more options that don't cost $5000, the better! :)

I'd thought about using a DBW controller from you. But I'm sticking to a cable for simplicity. Maybe some people will want the option - do you have any for sale?

[dakon]

$100 for moving 6 wires to a different connector...... sounds fair.

I did not realize it was only 6 wires.. I was more saying the 100$ sounded fair due to my lack of knowledge/ ignorance i suppose..

[Wanganstyle]

yes, we are waiting for you to attack and show the general en-mass solution with common parts :)

E-throttle and analog throttle would both be welcome, analog more fun imo

s54 crank position sensor is VR and a 60-2 wheel in the crank, the S54 e36z3m AFM is perfect fit to chassis and s54

[hoveringuy]

I disagree. It just takes knowledge of the electronics and how to set things up. It's possible to do it without modifying even one wire. The standalone guys have a vested interest in selling you their expensive harness - like I said, the more proprietary they make it, the better for them!

using a 413 ecu would be cheap/simple. It's the lack of stepless dual vanos that would bug me most. But even tuning a 413 isn't so advanced that most people could have access to it. It's still a big-boys only thing. That won't bring down the price much, IMO.

Lack of stepless dual VANOS? I would argue that the S54 is even easier to implement than the M54 because the M54 uses only ONE solenoid per cam, akin to a seal balancing a beachball on its nose. Control-wise it's difficult.

The S54 uses TWO solenoids per cam, one drain and one fill. Relatively easy to track and position the cam. Plus high pressure translates the cam quicker.

As far as tuning, once you've established the optimum advance/retard schedules for the cams and use them consistently, it becomes completely transparent to the problem of tuning. The position of the cams just influences cylinder filling. You're left with fuel and spark.

If I were to do this with a 413 I would do the following:

-run the engine at 3,5 bar with S52 injectors. Could always be changed later.
-Use complete S50 harness.
-complete OBD1 sensors, MAF, etc. 3.5" MAF, no doubt. M50 throttle body signal would need to come from the ITB. I think the S54 even has a VR crank sender, right?
-Control cams independently. That's been proven.
-Translate the intake cam signal into a faux M50 signal that the ECU would recognize. That would take about 2% of the overhead on my processor..
-E throttle? I've even done that on the M54 and it worked great. I have that solution ready to go. Again, S54 is easier becase it doesn't have the limp-home detent that M54 TB has. Some of you even played with it a the e30 picnic last year.. remember the demo at Griot's and James' ?

[nando]

yeah, that's why anything I do won't be proprietary. except hopefully, an end user could just plug it in, and forget about it.. but at the same time, I know that doesn't always happen. Even if everything is perfectly thought out, somebody will find a way to break it.

there's an MSS54 ecu on ebay for $300.. it's tempting! the problem with waiting until I actually have a motor is that will be a long while from now and I have much learning/research to do. my paypal balance is $288...

[Wanganstyle]

I disagree. It just takes knowledge of the electronics and how to set things up. It's possible to do it without modifying even one wire. The standalone guys have a vested interest in selling you their expensive harness - like I said, the more proprietary they make it, the better for them!



using a 413 ecu would be cheap/simple. It's the lack of stepless dual vanos that would bug me most. But even tuning a 413 isn't so advanced that most people could have access to it. It's still a big-boys only thing. That won't bring down the price much, IMO.

yes, knowledge and time and education only the higher end consumers (like you) can stomach. Not for majority, but some can handle it very well. Most people doing random 24v swaps are not prepared to spend dyno time and dyno money on tuning, hardcore people are the exception-

one could re-tail an OEM S54 harness to e30 chassis yes, but the lay out is a bit different, using a m50 harness and adding S54 specific items and ecu tail if running MSS54 may be faster/cleaner in the long run-

Standalones are annoying to deal with, cost alot of time and money to make run well. AND the locked proprietary items annoy me, my old DTA Serial -> usb adapter broke and was proprietary and cost....$60 to replace?? for a serial cable WTF!

[nando]

for standalone ECU, full harness modification is un-avoidable; This is not for average users or lower price points. High end consumer use and really track/race car only stuff.

I disagree. It just takes knowledge of the electronics and how to set things up. It's possible to do it without modifying even one wire. The standalone guys have a vested interest in selling you their expensive harness - like I said, the more proprietary they make it, the better for them!

using a 413 ecu would be cheap/simple. It's the lack of stepless dual vanos that would bug me most. But even tuning a 413 isn't so advanced that most people could have access to it. It's still a big-boys only thing. That won't bring down the price much, IMO.

[Wanganstyle]

Assuming a stock engine (or close), there's no need to retune everything. It would *have* to come with a complete tune, or the whole thing doesn't work. Having users self tune, is probably not a good idea, unless they know what they're doing. And most do not.

I'd also assume, most people aren't going to be opening up these motors to modify them.. unless they can afford the $10k EMS to go with it. There's really no point, you'll spend exponential dollars for a small relative gain. The only thing the internals really need are different rod bearings. It's a can of worms in there that I wouldn't even want to touch. $4k on cams? upgraded valves? questionable porting? fuck. remove the intake restrictions, ditch the US-headers, and tune the VANOS curves. Lots of potential there for a relatively smaller cost.


then don't modify the harness. leave it stock. There's no requirement to add noise, if it's done right. nothing critical really travels through the C101 (just to get the engine started basically), but a hard-pinned connection is definitely better than an adapter.

for standalone ECU, full harness modification is un-avoidable; This is not for average users or lower price points. High end consumer use and really track/race car only stuff.

I am saying for 413 DME or S52 DME+S54 engine it would be quite off; Ideally one of those would be used so installer could use a close to original S52/m50 engine wiring harness = avoid custom harness work

S54 engine can fit a S52 engine harness pretty much PNP, so if the S52/m50 brain can run S54 it solves ALL problems instead of only half - Mss54 ecu is obscure, ews only, expensive and only plug and play into a e46m chassis with its own E46m engine/chassis harness - no need to even go there if a common 413 or S52 ecu can run the S52:).

reference Nissan KA24DE + turbo; the ECU has been hacked enough that you can just bolt on turbo and re-flash to full turbo mapping, spec whatever timing/injectors/map +afm you wish.

S52 ecu has RPM limit at 8,000 but realistically how many need more than 8,000? I'll pay the premium of standalone DME to take it to 8,500 or 8,888 (super lucky potentially explosive redline), but not many others will.

[Wanganstyle]

if you want the EASIEST; I've outlined it already for you- you are in UK and this is easily done for you- compared to all us stateside-

Get entire S50b32 euro wiring +sensors and have it adapted for your e30 (6 wires)
install S54 as a S50b32 into your car with s50b32 everything

get s54 remapped at your local dyno shop that does s50b32 mapping - its just a super duper S50b320 :)

[nando]

(lots of stuff)

Assuming a stock engine (or close), there's no need to retune everything. It would *have* to come with a complete tune, or the whole thing doesn't work. Having users self tune, is probably not a good idea, unless they know what they're doing. And most do not.

I'd also assume, most people aren't going to be opening up these motors to modify them.. unless they can afford the $10k EMS to go with it. There's really no point, you'll spend exponential dollars for a small relative gain. The only thing the internals really need are different rod bearings. It's a can of worms in there that I wouldn't even want to touch. $4k on cams? upgraded valves? questionable porting? fuck. remove the intake restrictions, ditch the US-headers, and tune the VANOS curves. Lots of potential there for a relatively smaller cost.

the S54 core assembly can be gotten for as low as 3k in ugly shape yes.....but it will cost quite a decent chunk of change to setup to full turn key. Not something the wiring "adapter" crowd would be playing with - there should be no "ADAPTERS" when talking S54 wiring. HARD WIRE everything, or re-pin. No surplus noise in the system.

I've seen these wiring hell's go down for the last decade in the subaru / toyota /and now BMW world- its not for most, the premiums reflect it.
I have been requested to handle basket case subarus/others over total wiring hell over the years, on occasion I have handled them - usually I run away -Its not worth the risk to trip sombody else's potential electrical fire

then don't modify the harness. leave it stock. There's no requirement to add noise, if it's done right. nothing critical really travels through the C101 (just to get the engine started basically), but a hard-pinned connection is definitely better than an adapter.

[Dean]

Thanks guys, i've briefly scanned the replies ALOT of info...just for an idea, here is a ca that was sold last month in the UK...granted its an E36 M3 but this is essentially what I am hoping to create...It is possible the wiring harness to get the engine running at its optimal performance and the throttle being drive by and the the E30 being a cable are going to give the most greif! Um, getting the S54 is the easy part...its the rest that is the issue it would appear!!!

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3021474.htm

Thanks for replies so far guys :) I'm really giving it a thought and going to give it a try!

the ECU...there are so many options here and I've looked at so many companies that specilise in this field that makes the choice even harder, I am able to travel anywhere within northern Europe to get the work done with the ECU.

[nando]

Personally, if i could get a solution that would be a good solution and possibly keep most of the oem functionality for 1,500$, i would not think twice. I think 1,500$ is a very fair price.. When i was looking at the S52 option white325is said he would alter a harness for me for around 100 bucks... That was a no brainer as well, he's done many many harnesses...


I think a minority of people may try to give you a hard time, but F them... I would assume many others would try to help where they can and be grateful for your time an energy.

for just the C101 connector, sure. That's fairly basic stuff, not really that tough. the Z3M ETK is available and has all the info you'd need
for that part.

if I could come across a free/cheap (yeah, right) MSS54 ECU, I could get a head start. The idea is to not need to modify the stock harness (other than adding the C101). It would be nice to remove the uneccesary crap (air pump, DBW, secondary O2s, etc) but that's not required, really.

There's nothing wrong with BMW stock wiring - it's generally well thought out and extremely well documented. Much of the basic layout hasn't really changed since the '80s, other than adding more stuff. Unless you're a race team with lots of money, spending $2000 on a custom harness seems like a waste to me..