S54 advice and considerations

[Wanganstyle]

When i was looking at the S52 option white325is said he would alter a harness for me for around 100 bucks... That was a no brainer as well, he's done many many harnesses...

$100 for moving 6 wires to a different connector...... sounds fair.

if you have seen my S54 wiring photo from the BFC thread, you can see that the BOTH s52 AND s54 harness had to be unwraveled and re-configured to a custom standalone spec.

an s52 DME has 24 wires going into it. The body plugs all together have 25 wires, and there are around a dozen sensors needed with 2-3 wires per.

24+25+12X2 would be = 73 wires

ADD 1x S54 worth of wiring (assume it is same as S52 although it is NOT and has MORE wires)

73 (s52 harness) +73 (s54 harness) + a few....== more than 140 wires to touch and manage.

then you have minimal ..... 140 wires to handle, ID and decide WTF to do with. This takes a LOT of time and if work was rated par via wires to 6 wires @ $100....... the harness merger cost would be $2300-2350 USD??

After both S52 and S54 harness are complete un-raveled and ID'ed you have to pin the correct items into the MOTEC standalone connector- this is not the most fun but not terrible, then you have to build a relay system minic-ing OEM to trigger the coilpacks, injectors, and integrate some secret fuel pump and other item disable switches that work great for doing injector/coil pack testing etc :)

Obviously IF doing custom wiring can do custom anti-theft:)

I do not enjoy the thought of another individual being able to drive my S54 powered swap :) Don't ever let a friend drive a similar creation, you may loose a friend.

*******************
The above link I posted for 2JZ-GTE swap wiring will show every single wire needed to wire the 2jz with full toyota OBD function; I had my car inspected at Toyota San Francisco post entire 2jz-gte BPU swap as they had supplied all OEM items for the engine build.

S54 is a DIS 24v dohc item with even more wires than the 2jz-gte (dual vanos, German car vs Japanese car lol;
--------one can figure out themselves the work required :)

S54 custom harness for standalone = many more hours than 6 wires, much more labor expense. Anyone willing to do this work for cheap may simply be naive and you may NOT want to hire them...... :)

If you wanted a 2jz-gte in your E36 or e30 plug and play I could do it custom turn key, DR. Tweak could also. It is only a matter of understanding the systems and willingness to adapt and cross check ridiculously. Tedius process that you may not want to trust to just anyone..... DTA S100 is close to $2k to replace if you melt it yourself somehow....


IF some one (with electronics ability like steve) decides to hack the 413 and make a daughter board to run the S54, I don;t see why it cannot be done. the daughter board could be designed to plug and play into to any M50vanos harness and output to S54 Dual vanos, it would be similar to my inital target (failed) of trying to run the S54 on S52 OEM DME.

the wiring harness will plug and play to s54 almost (as my thread shows) but the settings/mapping is not close enough to fire.

I have a proven tested PNP S54 harness on my shelf and my own Alpha-N high speed high load (170mph OVER on 91 octane) mapping files for the S54 being assembled, When the time comes it will be 100% plug and play just like installing any other BMW I-6

Do you feel like committing to some kind of price range, if you were to be provided a wire harness such that it would be pnp?

Personally, i did not want to buy a S54 without having a wiring solution. I am not at the point where i can decode the wiring myself. If i had a detailed schematic i could do it, however right now, there aren't anything openly available.


I would love to do an S54 swap, as i would MUCH rather do an S54 swap than a S52 swap.

P.S. I don't want to come across as though I'm backing you into a corner, if you do not know what you would charge, i can understand i am just looking for other options other than Bimmerworlds 3k$ option.

Bimmer world 3K option is fair:

they are charging ~ $1500 for: harness and e-throttle adapter kit
$1500 (the rest) for hacked ecu (OEM). so the lump profit is from this item.

Cheap M50/s50/52 swap options are only because the DME IS OEM = $cheap.

Standalone EMS will always be $,$$$ affair. Why? because standalone.



why can BMWrld get away with this? easy - they paid the hacker enough to keep quiet and lock the supply of hacking down :)



ABL sells a custom hand built harness ($1500) for Standalone use, the Standalone costs ~ $2k. so you are paying same for the custom harness but more for a better product (2k for real standalone brand new with warrenty, vs a hacked stock s54 ecu for $1500).

you will probably not find anyone who can deliver a 100% plug and play harness for S54 to a standalone who can actually back up the work and will not want premium dollar for it- its a white collar affair you are requesting, the level of expertise required is very specific.

I doubt the people doing "e30 - 24v swap adapters" will be able to deliver anything close to a S54 PNP full harness for standalone-

on top of that be able to handle the mapping required for alpha-N to not melt your $5,000++ S54 playtoy.

This is not some junkyard M50 that can be had on craigslist and easily replaced, its a WBS full CNC head S54 @ 11.5:1 compression - not for the average hack to be tuning on a homebuilt megasquirt the first time around..... it will HURT $,$$$ to replace/repair an S54 when it goes.

the S54 core assembly can be gotten for as low as 3k in ugly shape yes.....but it will cost quite a decent chunk of change to setup to full turn key. Not something the wiring "adapter" crowd would be playing with - there should be no "ADAPTERS" when talking S54 wiring. HARD WIRE everything, or re-pin. No surplus noise in the system.

I've seen these wiring hell's go down for the last decade in the subaru / toyota /and now BMW world- its not for most, the premiums reflect it.
I have been requested to handle basket case subarus/others over total wiring hell over the years, on occasion I have handled them - usually I run away -Its not worth the risk to trip sombody else's potential electrical fire

[dakon]

I have ideas that would bring the cost down considerably, but it won't be for everyone... I'm thinking around $1500 for the whole thing. still expensive I guess, but not really.

Personally, if i could get a solution that would be a good solution and possibly keep most of the oem functionality for 1,500$, i would not think twice. I think 1,500$ is a very fair price.. When i was looking at the S52 option white325is said he would alter a harness for me for around 100 bucks... That was a no brainer as well, he's done many many harnesses...


I think a minority of people may try to give you a hard time, but F them... I would assume many others would try to help where they can and be grateful for your time an energy.

[nando]

I guess, in an indirect way. It's still better to have it adjust automatically - tuning injector timing angle isn't exactly easy. especially if you're spending a lot of time on VANOS tuning, you'll have to go back and make changes to the injector angle every time. So, it's possible, just a lot more difficult.

[hoveringuy]

you'd still need a custom tune and your vanos controller, right? The problem there is the tuning. I think matt could help, but it's still going to be fairly proprietary. that's part of why it's still expensive.

other issues - the S54 has 3 knock sensors and the M50 only has 2. It would be nice to use all 3. It would also be good to use alpha-N, or MAP, or a combination of the two rather than a restrictive (or expensive) MAF.

and having vanos intergrated into the ECU is a good thing, it's nice to be able to adjust injector timing based on the cam angle. I don't think you can do that with a stand-alone vanos controller.

I'm not so naive that I think the 413 would be as good as the other ECU's that are available, but given my experience with the M54 I still think it would work fairly well.

Tuning is defintately a bitch, but I have a better idea of how to do that now, too.

If you base injector timing on cam angle, cam angle is based on load/rpm, so everything ends up being based on load/rpm...

It would make a great science project and if it fails I can go with an established standalone, but if it works it would be cool to have a $100 ECU solution for the S54.

[giantkeeper]

they do, but there are only a handful (one? two?) of people who can actually modify the stock ECU, and they charge a lot of money (don't blame them, they've got the whole market to themselves).

Makes perfect sense to me ;)

[nando]

they do, but there are only a handful (one? two?) of people who can actually modify the stock ECU, and they charge a lot of money (don't blame them, they've got the whole market to themselves).

[giantkeeper]

Is there a specific reason why these tuners are not shutting off the EWS and the "other" trouble causing inputs in the stock DME?

Lack of knowledge?

[nando]

you'd still need a custom tune and your vanos controller, right? The problem there is the tuning. I think matt could help, but it's still going to be fairly proprietary. that's part of why it's still expensive.

other issues - the S54 has 3 knock sensors and the M50 only has 2. It would be nice to use all 3. It would also be good to use alpha-N, or MAP, or a combination of the two rather than a restrictive (or expensive) MAF.

and having vanos intergrated into the ECU is a good thing, it's nice to be able to adjust injector timing based on the cam angle. I don't think you can do that with a stand-alone vanos controller.

[hoveringuy]

I swear I still want to run the motor on a 413ecu.

[nando]

it's true you can make more power, but you won't have anywhere near the response, feel, or sound. But I guess when you look at it currently, it could cost an easy $10k to do the swap if you did everything yourself. A turbo S52 starts to make sense. if the cost could be cut in half, it would be more comparable to what people are doing now (and might make the S52 even cheaper).

[samiam3356]

I have ideas that would bring the cost down considerably, but it won't be for everyone... I'm thinking around $1500 for the whole thing. still expensive I guess, but not really. I don't see modifying the harness as completely neccesary. But I'd have to gut an MSS54 ECU (sad, but I could probably at least re-use some of the internal components).

basically the only way this is going to be cheaper is if matt at TRM can hack it, or if you use standalone. The guys selling $3000 flashes or $5000 plug and play standalones have an interest in keeping this proprietary. The margins are fat. the less the rest of you guys know, the better for them.

It's just a motor, guys - it just has a really, really awesome head. Give it air, fuel and spark in the right quantities, it will run. Of course keeping dual VANOS is the most important thing to me. DBW can suck a dick. :p

they seem to go for around $5000 right now, I'm thinking in a couple years they'll be around $3000? I've seen some there already, but they had cracks in the timing cover from being in an accident.. yikes!

It will be a couple years before I have anything to show though, because I'm going to have to prove it will work.. I'm expecting a lot of skeptics.

Haters gonna.....


I hope you do come up with something. I thought this would be my next swap but for the money you could have a fresh s52 with FI, making way more power than any na s54. Ended up buying another s52 block to build over the next year while I enjoy what I have.

[nando]

I have ideas that would bring the cost down considerably, but it won't be for everyone... I'm thinking around $1500 for the whole thing. still expensive I guess, but not really. I don't see modifying the harness as completely neccesary. But I'd have to gut an MSS54 ECU (sad, but I could probably at least re-use some of the internal components).

basically the only way this is going to be cheaper is if matt at TRM can hack it, or if you use standalone. The guys selling $3000 flashes or $5000 plug and play standalones have an interest in keeping this proprietary. The margins are fat. the less the rest of you guys know, the better for them.

It's just a motor, guys - it just has a really, really awesome head. Give it air, fuel and spark in the right quantities, it will run. Of course keeping dual VANOS is the most important thing to me. DBW can suck a dick. :p

they seem to go for around $5000 right now, I'm thinking in a couple years they'll be around $3000? I've seen some there already, but they had cracks in the timing cover from being in an accident.. yikes!

It will be a couple years before I have anything to show though, because I'm going to have to prove it will work.. I'm expecting a lot of skeptics.

[dakon]

yeah, i saw the price for the ABL solution.

[Teaguer]

Do you feel like committing to some kind of price range, if you were to be provided a wire harness such that it would be pnp?

i am just looking for other options other than Bimmerworlds 3k$ option.

Wanganstyle mentions that Alex (ABL) sells standalone pnp harness for around $1500.
Wanganstyle himself has listed on bf.c & ebay an e36 pnp harness for the DTA s100 standalone for $1250.

[dakon]

Call ABL in chicago, call me, call many others- problem is always time expense $,$$$.

Do you feel like committing to some kind of price range, if you were to be provided a wire harness such that it would be pnp?

Personally, i did not want to buy a S54 without having a wiring solution. I am not at the point where i can decode the wiring myself. If i had a detailed schematic i could do it, however right now, there aren't anything openly available.



I would love to do an S54 swap, as i would MUCH rather do an S54 swap than a S52 swap.

P.S. I don't want to come across as though I'm backing you into a corner, if you do not know what you would charge, i can understand i am just looking for other options other than Bimmerworlds 3k$ option.