can you run an s54 in an e30 w megasquirt?

[bastianshaw]

if no, why not?

[DesertBMW]

Yes you could. People run some amazing engines on megasquirt.

But S54 requires very sophisticated dual vanos control and knock control to be able to get best power with 91 octane fuel. And there is no better ecu than stock mss54 dme for that job.

[nando]

Yes you could. People run some amazing engines on megasquirt.

But S54 requires very sophisticated dual vanos control and knock control to be able to get best power with 91 octane fuel. And there is no better ecu than stock mss54 dme for that job.

MS3 can run the dual vanos no problem. It can't run the 3-sensor knock system, you'd only be able to run them into 1 knock sensor input. But you'd be tuning it on a dyno anyway, you shouldn't be tuning it to knock.

cost wise, it's a wash. if you've already got an MSS54 DME with your S54, it will cost $1k-$2k to get it tuned (also try epic motorsports, the prices are pretty reasonable, but I have no experience with them yet). If you have to buy an MSS54 it will cost another $300-$900.

It will cost around $1k for the MS3 kit with all the other stuff you need (wires, sensors etc). Also you will have to pay for dyno tuning, either yourself if you learn how, or somebody else. If you don't have it dyno tuned you're just wasting your time. The S54 is complicated and you'll have a lot of things to tune (two vanos maps, fuel maps, spark maps, fuel trim maps, spark trim maps, injector timing maps, etc. etc. etc.), so it will take more than just a couple hours. I figure maybe $1200 in dyno time.

the truth is most of the "sophistication" of MSS54 is emissions related. it has two CPUs because one of them is dedicated to monitoring emissions. also, MSS54 is a 13 year old computer. Imagine the computer you had 13 years ago; your cellphone is probably 10x faster. MSS54 is not exactly "high tech" these days. Realistically the MS3 CPU is probably "better", but it doesn't really mean much if you can't tune it.

If you were talking about running the S54 on MS1 or MS2, yes it could do it, and it would probably work fine - if it was a race car. Otherwise, don't even think about it.

The advantage of self tuning is you get 100% full control over your engine. if you add any mods, you can tweak your tune to suit, rather than pay for a whole new tune. The disadvantage is you have 100% control over your engine, so you have to be responsible for every little routine thing that you wouldn't normally think about driving a BMW.

[bastianshaw]

Thanks fellas

[hoveringuy]

I'm not sure Megasquirt could run an S54 out of the box.

The first issue is that the cam wheel pattern is not currently supported.

The second is that while MS can easily run dual-VANOS (it's been running mine no problem...) it can't as easily support the two solenoilds per cam "push-pull" VANOS that the S54 has.

This could be overcome and I'm confident I could get an S54 running on Megasquirt, but I don't think there is native support for the motor.

[nando]

you'd just have to work with james to add it. it's not a very complicated pattern (8-1 on the intake, 7-1 on the exhaust). It just takes one motivated individual with an S54 to do that.

I can't remember what I came up with, but there are definitely enough outputs. it could be done with just software changes, or possibly clever hardware.

basically, there's no native support because nobody has gone to the point where James could add it. sort of a chicken and an egg problem.

[Coyote_ar]

regarding the dual vanos, is it similar to the M52TU/M54 dual vanos?

[nando]

regarding the dual vanos, is it similar to the M52TU/M54 dual vanos?

No, not really. The s54 has two PWM solenoids per cam, uses high oil pressure for adjustment, and has about twice the adjustment range (60/40 degrees off the top of my head). Also the s54 uses a high resolution toothed wheel for the intake and exhaust, the m54 has a 50/50 cam wheel (basically as precise as a 1 tooth wheel pattern, but faster synching).

Basically the s54 cam adjustment is much faster, more precise, and it has way more range.

Isnt the m52tu just on/off/on? I didnt think it was variable at all.

[Wh33lhop]

No, not really. The s54 has two PWM solenoids per cam, uses high oil pressure for adjustment, and has about twice the adjustment range (60/40 degrees off the top of my head). Also the s54 uses a high resolution toothed wheel for the intake and exhaust, the m54 has a 50/50 cam wheel (basically as precise as a 1 tooth wheel pattern, but faster synching).

Basically the s54 cam adjustment is much faster, more precise, and it has way more range.

Isnt the m52tu just on/off/on? I didnt think it was variable at all.

M52TU was actually more similar to M54 than M52. Has identical Vanos IIRC.

[MarkD]

MS3 can run the dual vanos no problem. It can't run the 3-sensor knock system, you'd only be able to run them into 1 knock sensor input. But you'd be tuning it on a dyno anyway, you shouldn't be tuning it to knock.

cost wise, it's a wash. if you've already got an MSS54 DME with your S54, it will cost $1k-$2k to get it tuned (also try epic motorsports, the prices are pretty reasonable, but I have no experience with them yet). If you have to buy an MSS54 it will cost another $300-$900.

It will cost around $1k for the MS3 kit with all the other stuff you need (wires, sensors etc). Also you will have to pay for dyno tuning, either yourself if you learn how, or somebody else. If you don't have it dyno tuned you're just wasting your time. The S54 is complicated and you'll have a lot of things to tune (two vanos maps, fuel maps, spark maps, fuel trim maps, spark trim maps, injector timing maps, etc. etc. etc.), so it will take more than just a couple hours. I figure maybe $1200 in dyno time.

the truth is most of the "sophistication" of MSS54 is emissions related. it has two CPUs because one of them is dedicated to monitoring emissions. also, MSS54 is a 13 year old computer. Imagine the computer you had 13 years ago; your cellphone is probably 10x faster. MSS54 is not exactly "high tech" these days. Realistically the MS3 CPU is probably "better", but it doesn't really mean much if you can't tune it.

If you were talking about running the S54 on MS1 or MS2, yes it could do it, and it would probably work fine - if it was a race car. Otherwise, don't even think about it.

The advantage of self tuning is you get 100% full control over your engine. if you add any mods, you can tweak your tune to suit, rather than pay for a whole new tune. The disadvantage is you have 100% control over your engine, so you have to be responsible for every little routine thing that you wouldn't normally think about driving a BMW.

When I read post like this I seriously have to wonder why I am a sponsor here. Why mention Epic when I provide a similar service at a lower price? It will cost you around $2K to get the combo of all the changes to an MSS54 DME from BW plus the performance tune, when I am offering it for $1600

And the MSS54 uses two 32 bit CPU332's from Motorola (Freescale) as one controls ignition timing and the other controls fuelling. The various emission monitoring functions are shared between the two CPU's. How do I know? Not from mere speculation, but because I actually reverse engineered major sections of the code in both these CPU's.

There are much more than two VANOS maps, where did you get that info? Why not actually reverse engineer the code instead of dreaming up a response!

MarkD

[TG Goose]

Mark, your website no longer works.

[King Mufasa]

When I read post like this I seriously have to wonder why I am a sponsor here. Why mention Epic when I provide a similar service at a lower price? It will cost you around $2K to get the combo of all the changes to an MSS54 DME from BW plus the performance tune, when I am offering it for $1600

And the MSS54 uses two 32 bit CPU332's from Motorola (Freescale) as one controls ignition timing and the other controls fuelling. The various emission monitoring functions are shared between the two CPU's. How do I know? Not from mere speculation, but because I actually reverse engineered major sections of the code in both these CPU's.

There are much more than two VANOS maps, where did you get that info? Why not actually reverse engineer the code instead of dreaming up a response!

MarkD

This^^ MarkD +1

[nando]

When I read post like this I seriously have to wonder why I am a sponsor here. Why mention Epic when I provide a similar service at a lower price? It will cost you around $2K to get the combo of all the changes to an MSS54 DME from BW plus the performance tune, when I am offering it for $1600

And the MSS54 uses two 32 bit CPU332's from Motorola (Freescale) as one controls ignition timing and the other controls fuelling. The various emission monitoring functions are shared between the two CPU's. How do I know? Not from mere speculation, but because I actually reverse engineered major sections of the code in both these CPU's.

There are much more than two VANOS maps, where did you get that info? Why not actually reverse engineer the code instead of dreaming up a response!

MarkD

christ, why get so defensive? I asked you about this stuff months ago and never got any response.

I was talking about MS3's mapping, not MSS54's. I was laying out what it would hypothetically take to fully tune MS3 to run an S54 from scratch. It's a lot of work!

Remind me where I mention a price for Epic? I said it could cost $1k-$2k to have the DME flashed, is that not in the ballpark? is $1600 not right in the middle of that range?

BTW, if you select a couple options on Epic's website (standalone, disabling O2 monitoring/emissions faults, and the $200 "race tune") it comes to $800. Of course I don't know if that's the real price because I haven't asked them about it. thus the $1000-$2000 price range. a tuning cable and 1 hour of remote tuning is $400. as for other "extras", I have no idea, but it's still in that ballpark.

If I were capable of reverse engineering software for MSS54, I would. I researched it enough to know that I'm not capable of doing it. My abilities are pretty much limited to hacking control modules with NCSexpert. Also, it would cost serious money as you know. I'm not even sure why you mentioned it?

anyway, the whole question in this thread was if MS3 could run an S54 competently, and the answer is yes, it could. But there is a lot of work to do, you'd have to blaze the trail yourself.

[MarkD]

This^^ MarkD +1

That is really odd! I paid for my URL for 10 years so I am not sure what happened. I'll have to check into this but it may take a few days as it looks like someone has changed the re-direction service to point somewhere else. You can use this link for now: http://www3.sympatico.ca/mdsylva/


Mark

[Wanganstyle]

I have never talked to anyone local with Mark d s54 Mss54 hacked ecu swapped. Introduce me if you know anyone with it in the bay area as I am interested in how good the results are; I'm not a "dreamer" like many posting about s54. I have done a S54 a few years ago from scratch in the early days of DTA s100+ s54.

Epic tune for S54 OEM Mss54 ecu is EXTREMELY POPULAR.**** thats why it is mentioned. If you want to be mentioned that much then perhaps work on increasing the popularity of your product??



Link G4 has OEM S54 support built into its structure; its also extremely popular with high end engine retrofits - a local M12 got converted to gear drive from chain and fitted with modern Link G4.

DTA S100 and vipec can also natively handle the S54.

as far as using a MS with S54 it is possible; but cheaper to run an already sorted out system even if the initial cost is much more.