will E34 6MT 525ix transmission bolt up to 1991 E30 325ix - m20b25

[e30ixBoost]

as the tittle is asking ..without any modification ?

if so am also wondering if transfer box from a 5 MT 325ix will bolt up to the 525ix transmission without modification ?

separate to that i know the E30 m20b25 has a funky oil pan and the front drive shaft goes through it, does this mean that swapping the M50B25 in place with the transmission and transfer box will need entire new front differential / drive shaft / setup reconfigured ?

is it possible to swap in the m50b25 wil e30 oil pan ? are they interchangeable between each other aka no modifications what so ever ?

i am going to be stroking the m20b25 to 3.1L and boosting it to 900hp, it would be nice to have a 6 speed

All Wheel Drive is a must.

any other simple bolt up methods, theories, information about keeping the AWD or replacing it with little to no effort is welcome

[downforce22]

you may want to look at this iX and his build thread before you get all gung-ho on 900 HP in an iX.You better have some spare axles, trannys, and diffs.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=180631

[e30ixBoost]

thank you ill read up on that thread, i understand the weak points of the E30 ix chain driven transfer box, the front differential / drive axle

im sure down the road we will be able to figure something out

the car was specifically purchased iX for a reason :)

however before we get the ball rolling and money is spent, it would be nice to know of all other options and or solutions that are on the table, money is obviously a factor here - however it would be wiser to invest into the AWD drive train now, then to discover down the road a totally viable money logistical solution was available .

also we are already 2 weeks into the research phase, so the idea is nothing new, i have many saved bookmarks and jot notes , however it is best to clarify and double check as much as humanly possible :)

[e30ixBoost]

that thread didnt answer any of my questions he used stock drive train .. and only mentioned he had reinforced drive train but no details given ...

[Dirty325ix]

if the transmission does bolt right to the engine and I'm not saying it will than you wouldn't have to worry about the oil pan or front diff but I could see problems lining the front drive shaft up with the new transfer case

[e30ixBoost]

your absolutely correct on that, any differences in lengths between the two transmissions, or a varied mounting angle would require a custom propeller shaft to be manufactured. This cost would not be worth undertaking

i am open to interchanging the 525ix and 325ix structures if need be ... depending on what it may occur (for example enhanced engine or better structured AWD infrastructure)

[nando]

The E34 has a ZF310/320 5-speed, not a 6 speed. It will bolt up to the M20 engine but the E30 transfercase won't bolt to the E34 ix trans mount, and the angle will be wrong on an M20 anyway so the front driveshaft won't align with the front diff.

You can't swap the E34 oil pan onto an M20. the angle is 10* too much. the E30 ix oil pump won't work either.

To use the E34 front diff you need the E34 oil pan, *and* both front E34 CV shafts. the E34 shafts are rare as hell to find, especially in good condition, and they're expensive. I have a pair, they cost me an arm and a leg too. Also they need some minor modification to work in the E30's front hubs (abs rings need swapped and a step needs to be machined into the face of the outter joints). You have to use E34 front hub nuts.

you'd also need a matching 3.38 rear diff with a VC, and it'd have to be custom built. there is only one ratio that works in the E34 front diff, and it's 3.38. the E46 and later use the same type 168mm ring and pinion in the front diff but the parts won't fit without extensive customization. and in the end with the ZF and 3.38 your gearing is basically the same as the Getrag 260 and a 4.10, so there's no gearing advantage.

The E30 transfercase is better than the E34 transfercase in several ways. I don't know where you saw that the E30 TC/chain is a weak point, because it's not (but it is common internet nonsense). the weakest point on the E30 is the front diff. it's a type 168 also but everything inside is much smaller than the E34.

both the E34 and E30 have chains in their transfercases, they're both manufactured by ZF. essentially they're the same except the E34 has a electric lock while the E30 has a VC. The people I talked to about it in europe say the lock in the E34 transfercase isn't great for performance, also if it wears out you have to buy a whole new TC as you can't buy the lock seperately like you can a VC. The E34 lock requires the entire ABS system swapped over, all the electronics, and also it remains unlocked at higher speeds (the VC *always* works).

other parts you'd need: E34 ix shift console (which has to be shortened). custom selector rod (unsure of length difference between ZF and getrag, but *hopefully* the ZF is shorter). Custom adapter plate to mount the E30 TC to an E34 ix transmission (has to be located in exactly the same place as it was stock).

It'd be a good idea to get lengthened front driveshaft splines, or some how use parts of an E46 front driveshaft to mate to the E30 transfercase and E34 3-bolt front diff flange.

some things that do work out nicely, the E30 TC and ZF trans both use a 96mm flex disk, the E30 and E34 front diff both use the same size flex disc (get one from an E53 X5 or use an E30 rear flex disc, it's thicker/stronger).

the basic answer to the question of using it with an m20 is flatly, no. if you're going to do all the work to use E34 parts, you're not going to want to waste it on an M20. It will probably cost you about $3,000-5,000, realistically, to do an entire E34 drivetrain swap, and then it will make way more sense to do a 24v engine that is meant to work with.

another final hurdle to this is finding, and shipping, all these parts from europe. it's not going to be cheap. I lucked out on a few parts and also you can buy the rear cover of the E34 ix trans from BMW brand new (don't know how many they have left, mine was obviously sitting in a back room somewhere for the last 20 years). But you still have to buy a ZF in the states and rebuild it with the E34 ix rear cover, although I'd bet it'll be cheaper and better than shipping a whole transmission from germany to the USA (which will likely be worn out, oh yeah, the germans don't take care of their old cars).

[e30ixBoost]

The E34 has a ZF310/320 5-speed, not a 6 speed. It will bolt up to the M20 engine but the E30 transfercase won't bolt to the E34 ix trans mount, and the angle will be wrong on an M20 anyway so the front driveshaft won't align with the front diff ....

wow you are the man thank you very much for that well formated straight forward and to the point information.

concurrently from the information gathered in your post and if possible to pick your brain some more, ill explain my situation further so it may help to speed things along

i have a 1991 BMW 325 ix 4 door, 5 speed manual

i am looking forward to either boosting it or most most likely now a euro S50 swap

i personally will not be doing the swap, i will be in charge of gathering all the parts, and presenting a small booklet of information and or guide lines to howto's for the shop in order to ease and help speed up their work.

that said, my questions are

pertaining to a european evo 3.2L S50b32 engine, i read its externally the same as the American however internally and electronically it differs, that said ... the franken-oil pan method seems to me as the most cost effective way to do a s50 swap

will the euro S50 engine bolt up to my current american M20 transmission ? if so which clutch parts would i use euro/american?
if not will a euro s50 need a euro m20 transmission, will that bolt up to the american 325ix transfercase ?

are the engine mounts in the same place ?

any difference because of LHD vs RHD which would cause a hassle ?

electronics wise differences or hassles using a euro S50 ?

would leaving the 10* angle be a possibility or will the front drive shaft no longer pass through the oil pan ?

will leaving the engine at said angle require custom fabrications or vise versa ?

since euro M50s are cheap how hard would it be to swap in euro S50 parts ?

if M50 is used and bored out will the block erode cause of the low sulfur fuel ? is a darton sleeve a fix ?

also the reason i choose the euro S50 was because of power/torque ... AFAIK it requires the least of custom fabrication ...

what would the difference be or would it be simpler to use the american S54 engine as its loosely in the same power range ?
If so any issues with the spacing of the radiator or using the dash/E30 electronics after a VANOS remove will be present ?
(the IX must be functional and im really not looking toward a s54 swap as a turbo m20 would be more economical)

and anything else that i have left out or missed which is of use or help

[nando]

Ok, s50 changes everything, in that case 525ix parts make the most sense, especially for the front diff. Ill reply in more detail in the morning when im not on a phone.

[e30ixBoost]

Ok, s50 changes everything, in that case 525ix parts make the most sense, especially for the front diff. Ill reply in more detail in the morning when im not on a phone.

i greatly appreciate this, got many questions and only bits n peaces from what i was able to google, lots of documented swaps n what not, however in depth and double verification always is a plus, so once again thank you

that said two more questions passed my mind for the 10 degree angle issue(s), would a dog box solve it ? a custom fabriacted shift leaver with an offset angle to save on total costs ?

money for this project is going to be tight as i have to have everything prepared and paid for initially, so im hoping that after the parts, aka performance clutch, if need be a custom bore for a stroker kit(87mm max on S50 for boost) .. entirely new internal forged hardware .. all would be best done before any engine is swapped in (or m20 boosted .. which personally i dislike .. investing that amount of money for an aged engine :loco:),

done during the swap would mean that future upgrades would start from the cylinder head and up AFAIK, it would not be required to remove the engine/transmission again.

i am aiming for an initial goal of 300 hp naturally aspired, i do not think the M20 will reach that, even with a stroker kit .If the S50 is getting forged pistons/rods, might as well bore it out too

now all this for around 4000$ total parts(hopefully less) not including labor, that said keeping the original 325ix AWD would make it easier to hit that mark under a euro S50 .. but if i have to do the transfercase .. front/rear differentials .. propeller shaft .. etc etc .. under a euro S50 i will :( if not its best to leave it (depending) do it later (RWD only minus T-case until all parts are purchased again then swapped in at one go which would also mean two oil pans)

in the end anything above 800 hp with a turbo ... upgraded cylinder head all that stuff may be parted in over a longer time period

[nando]

pertaining to a european evo 3.2L S50b32 engine, i read its externally the same as the American however internally and electronically it differs, that said ... the franken-oil pan method seems to me as the most cost effective way to do a s50 swap

okay, there's really two options on an S50 swap (be it euro or otherwise): the 525ix oil pan, front diff, CV shafts, and transmission, or the "frankenpan" method where you use all stock E30 325ix parts and modify the front 6-8" or so of the ix oil pan (basically cut off the front of an M50 oil pan and weld it to the ix pan).

There are many drawbacks to the frankenpan method: you're still stuck with the teeny/weak front diff, for one. It may or may not be OK behind an S50, it probably won't live long if you're drag racing, and it'll certainly die if you turbo it.

Another problem is the angle of the engine will be 10 degrees too upright. This presents a couple challenges - the oiling system may or may not be designed to work like that. People have done it, but it makes me uncomfortable. The second and major issue is with the engine at the wrong angle, the airbox will interfere with the brake booster. you either have to make your own airbox, run none at all, or remove the booster.

The only real advantage is mostly it bolts together and you can use E30 ix mount arms and rubber mounts.

Now the 525ix parts - you're in europe presumeably, so the issues of cost mostly go away, and you can actually find 525ix parts.

you'd use a ZF310/320 transmission off a 525ix. With this transmission the issues of the 10 degree angle go away because it was all designed with that same engine lean in mind. you'd also use the 525ix oil pump and pickup tube (they will bolt onto the S50), the 525ix front diff, build a 3.38 rear diff into an ix diff case (if you want a rear VC), and slightly modify the 525ix front CV shafts to fit into the E30's front hubs.

you'd need the 525ix shift carrier, which would have to be shortened.

the major hurdles are designing an adapter plate for the E30 transfercase to bolt to the 525ix transmission, and motor mount arms (there may be a stock mount arm that will work from a 24v car, but more research is needed). as I said the flex disks are the same, so the flanges bolt together no problem. One potential issue is length, ideally you'd keep the total length of the transmission + transfercase the same as it is on a stock E30 325ix. I haven't been able to measure it, but my *hope* is the ZF transmission is shorter than the Getrag 260.

you should be able to use a stock 325ix front driveshaft, but ideally you'd lengthen the splined section by 1" (and make sure to use the right lube!). the rear driveshaft can remain stock. if there are any alignment issues between the front transfercase output and the front diff (they should be in a straight line) you could custom make a shaft using parts from an E46 325ix (it has u-joints). Me and another guy *believe* that they line up okay, but it hasn't been checked yet.

a freshly built E30 transfercase should handle an S50 no problem.

will the euro S50 engine bolt up to my current american M20 transmission ? if so which clutch parts would i use euro/american?
if not will a euro s50 need a euro m20 transmission, will that bolt up to the american 325ix transfercase ?

Yes but the engine will be 10* more upright. I believe you could use the 240mm S50 clutch and starter on the Getrag transmission.

are the engine mounts in the same place ?

if you go the frankenpan route, you can use the 325ix mount arms, but you have to drill out the bolt holes a little bit.

any difference because of LHD vs RHD which would cause a hassle ?

there's no such thing as a RHD 325ix, so no issues there. :)

electronics wise differences or hassles using a euro S50 ?

Euro S50 electronics are easy. it's pretty much identical to an M50 swap, which is widely documented.

would leaving the 10* angle be a possibility or will the front drive shaft no longer pass through the oil pan ?

if you use all stock 325ix parts the engine will sit more upright but all the drivetrain will line up. if you use 525ix parts the engine lean will be corrected.

will leaving the engine at said angle require custom fabrications or vise versa ?

see above. the airbox or the brake booster will have to go.

since euro M50s are cheap how hard would it be to swap in euro S50 parts ?

if M50 is used and bored out will the block erode cause of the low sulfur fuel ? is a darton sleeve a fix ?

I don't think you can use S50 parts in an M50 block. very different.

also the reason i choose the euro S50 was because of power/torque ... AFAIK it requires the least of custom fabrication ...

what would the difference be or would it be simpler to use the american S54 engine as its loosely in the same power range ?
If so any issues with the spacing of the radiator or using the dash/E30 electronics after a VANOS remove will be present ?
(the IX must be functional and im really not looking toward a s54 swap as a turbo m20 would be more economical)

the engines are all basically the same length since they're all 6 cylinders with 91mm bore spacing (center to center). no issues with radiators. otherwise the swap is the same with the same challenges.

if you're talking about the S54.. don't delete the VANOS, it's not really neccesary. you can have the DME flashed so it will run standalone inside an E30 no problem although it's costly. if you can get a good euro S50 it will be much simpler.

if you do a swap basically I highly reccomend the 525ix parts route. It's harder in some ways but the end result should be much better.

[e30ixBoost]

the engines are all basically the same length since they're all 6 cylinders with 91mm bore spacing (center to center). no issues with radiators. otherwise the swap is the same with the same challenges.

if you're talking about the S54.. don't delete the VANOS, it's not really necessary. you can have the DME flashed so it will run standalone inside an E30 no problem although it's costly. if you can get a good euro S50 it will be much simpler.

if you do a swap basically I highly recommend the 525ix parts route. It's harder in some ways but the end result should be much better.

;) wow ... just wow, there should be a title underneath ur name that says wizard :o thanks again !!

ill need several days to put things into order , but u have brought to my attention something that has puzzled me and i for one gave up on and over looked it greatly, and that was the S54 swap. After reading that the ZF310/320 transmission bolts up to it , solving the lean, and the 525ix oil pan also fits, both of which i was not sure about before, it would seem to me this is the route to take. I say this because every euro S50 block i see has some sort of erosion on it from the cheap petro (they were built with aluminum blocks unlike american cast iron)

so concurrently i have decided to forgo getting the forged internal parts before the swap, and focus on a straight S54 525iX drive train swap, much rather have sturdy and robust drive train, in the future the engine may always be taken out and reinforced for the turbo

i will need some more time to produce a better written procedure, but ill quickly run by what i have learned from you incorporated with others for a preliminary howto, feel free to correct or better yet throw in more helpful information.

1. 525iX oil pan, oil housing, oil pump, oil sump
2. 525iX ZF310 or 320 transmission with 525iX transfercase and their respected shifter arm/ housing
3. 525iX propeller shaft
4. 525iX front differential (which should match the gear ration of the rear however i am able to leave the rear alone because i do not want the 525iX locking rear diff etc etc. so its better to use the 525ix rear diff parts in the 325ix rear diff ?)
5. 525iX drive shaft and http://www.moonlitemotorwerks.com/driveshaft
6. 525iX front CV shafts, which will need to be modified to fit the E30 hubs (or a 5 bolt new solution )

7. s54 engine with clutch/fly wheel
8. s54 motor mounts / arms (8mm larger iX bolts)
- right engine mount will need trimming to fit the front exhaust manifold, as it hits the mounting bolt
9. s54 wiring harness
10. S54 dash (or custom rewiring job for E30 dash <- id rather get a new dash if possible or fabricate the e46 to fit)

11. e23 hydraulic servo
13. e28 oil reservoir / brake booster / master cylinder / fluid reservoir / fuel pressure accumulator

14. e30 starter

there will also need to be a custom exhaust fabricated with headers as there would be a 5mm clearance between the headers and the control arm bushing mounts

on top of this , the transmission will have to be reinforced so it does not slide forward when you give it, the engine mounts too.

one will have to cut into the firewall and bend the heater pipes towards the driver’s side then down about an inch, this will allow the intake manifold to clear

if using aluminum mounts you have to use the E36 arms for the rubber mounts, E24 / or E28 part number 11 81 1 132 793 these mounts have to be mounted in the outside mounding holes of the sub frame


as i said this is just a preliminary howto/FAQ, ill write a more indepth one, parts list !! and hopefully include pictures for the shop .

once i get you to look this over some minor discussions on the S54 swap, what it in titles which i may have over looked, ill start purchasing the parts

once again, thank you bmw wizard !! im sure there is alot of people like i who spent countless hours on the net surfing and reading, only to be throw half assed responses and contradictions which make it very confusing to decide on heavy factors here and there, this should not only help me out, but others in the future too. :puppy:

[flyboyx]

oh boy. when i read your first post, this sounded pretty "pie in the sky". there are no stock bmw parts that will handle 900hp. even the chassis won't take that kind of abuse. a target of 300 is much more attainable.

here are a couple more things to think about: the budget you mention above is not realistic. if you plan on paying a shop to do this work, the labor alone will be more than 4000.00 to accomplish this. if you are looking to use an s54, expect your total parts bill with tuning and fabrication to be north of 10,000.

even swapping an s52 into a rwd chassis and doing all the work yourself will cost more than 4k.

so, i suggest budgeting at least 15k at a very minimum to accomplish what you are trying to do.

chris knows what he is talking about as you gathered with all the advice he painstakingly posted above. it would be a monumental understatement to say this swap isn't for the faint of heart. i would love to see you git 'er done. at the very least, you might want to plan on driving the car for a couple of years while you are collecting parts. expect to take about two years to find a set of e34ix front axles in good condition unless you have a lot of money (2400.00 for new ones) or are really lucky.

not to discourage you, but i would go so far as to say that this is perhaps the most complicated and intensive modification you could possibly accomplish on an e30.(other than swapping a v8 which has never been done)

[e30ixBoost]

here are a couple more things to think about: the budget you mention above is not realistic. if you plan on paying a shop to do this work, the labor alone will be more than 4000.00 to accomplish this. if you are looking to use an s54, expect your total parts bill with tuning and fabrication to be north of 10,000.

so, i suggest budgeting at least 15k at a very minimum to accomplish what you are trying to do.

e30.(other than swapping a v8 which has never been done)

I really thank you for your words of (dis)encourange but for someone who's never even heard of a v8 e30 swap its hard to take your price for labor as realisitic view

I would love to link u some youtube videos amoung howtos on the v8 swaps but I'm on a phone so maybe later

As far as paying a shop ur calcuations are way off .. Just because u don't know any shop owners doesn't mean my end is the same. That said .. next time u want to quote work here's a basic formula - hourly employe payment + daily operating costs + owners profit = how much you swap will cost

No need for me to brag or bring up previous projects as its counter productive so how about we continue were I last left off

Thank you and just so no flame wars errupt I have already negotiated the cost of the swap , with the cost of a secondary shop that will take over electronics after the mechanical side is complete

So all that is left is decision on procedure, I'm starting to think that purchasing a entire 525ix is a good route too take however that is overkill if only the above parts be required

As far as the s54 engine and parts go it will be nice to know what will be required

[flyboyx]

wow. what are you, like 18? you have it all figured out mr 14 posts. thank you for your lesson in economics above. last time i checked, mechanic shop labor is north of 80 bucks an hour even at the crappiest places. how many hours do you think this will take? 50 hours would be 4k. i assure you that with fabrication it will be well over 100. the shop you engage to do this will certainly have never done this before. there will certainly be a learning curve an you will be the one paying the bill for that. but i am talking out my ass. good luck to you.


ps: the last statement was meant to mean swapping a v8 into an ix. you won't be able to show me any videos about that.

at least if nothing else, this thread gives us something interesting to read other than the usual boring "my vc is broken" kind of thing.

i'm sure you already know all this but here is some "interesting" reading for you:

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88582

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108535