Speaker recommendation

[nrubenstein]

A $400+ used audio processor seems a bit overkill. Time-alignment isn't really going to do much in a car environment. The tweeters & mids will be physically separated enough that misalignment of their acoustic centers isn't going to cause immediate cancellations like it would in a baffled multi-way loudspeaker. Considering how much road & engine noise you get in a car, it is sort of pointless to put that much work into the system. Most people don't go out to sit in their driveway to listen to music for extended periods.

The car cabin does cause some funky stuff below 200Hz (resonances, standing waves). Above 200Hz, it is more a matter of adjusting channel gains to account for driver sensitivity. EQing might be necessary to deal with nasty standing waves & resonances in the cabin, but I think that is more due to junky ported boxes that are designed to distribute 50cent to the surrounding neighborhood rather than reinforce low frequency content.

Personally, I say get some reputable drivers that have SPL curves in their datasheets. You won't need to EQ if you get a halfway decent driver that has a nice flat response. Cheap drivers have all sorts of ugly breakup modes & peaks in their response. I'd say that the stock drivers should be tossed. Their response curves are unknown, but based on their construction quality, it is safe to assume that their response is really lousy. By "reputable" I mean drivers that aren't "car brands." You have to spend 4x or more (compared to "indoor" stuff) on "car" drivers to get basics like cast aluminum frames, and you almost never get a datasheet with proper specs. Look through the links I posted. You aren't going to find a "car" driver of anywhere near that quality for $52. If you spend more than $200 on two mids & two tweeters, you are getting suckered. Price and performance are not related at all like people are led to believe. It's all marketing hocus-pocus.

While I will agree that time alignment isn't that important, I have yet to encounter a system that wouldn't benefit from serious EQing. By the time you add up the cost of doing it one way or another, the MS-8 wins because it does it better and cheaper.

Been there, done that. With an Audiocontrol DQXS, an RTA setup and a lot of time, I could get my system to sound decent. The MS-8 gets better results for about the same amount of money and a few minutes invested. (Just look at the E90 that won an IASCA class with an MS-8 and the stock speakers. And that was using the MS-8's internal amp for most of them. While I generally agree that competitions are kind of bullshit, that's still impressive.)

Net-net, if the baseline is kind of adequate, you'll get more bang for your buck out of really good processing than anything. And anyway, the MS-8 will handle all the active crossover duties that your recommended speakers require. By the time you throw them in a door, or the E30 speaker enclosure, it's not as if they'll have a flat response anyway. You can't possibly be arguing that speakers aren't affected by that.

[StereoInstaller1]

I LOL'ed.



I kinda got the felling that the +300 components weren't the best value - more the for guys competing. I assume that on the sub-$200 components, the peek RMS was a bit of a marking value too - something they slap on the side of the box at walmart? Is the average RMS a better indicator of "you'll be able to throw some power at this speaker, and use an EQ to pull some of the crap out" kind of thing?

For other people picking out stereo gear - it's a shame that these isn't a list of 3 or 4 speakers that fit, and are under $200. 3 or 4 amps that are decent. That's what's really needed is an "Here's a list of things that are ok, and work fine"....

Yeah, because lord knows we don't want anyone to actually LEARN something, do we?

BTW: Proper top notch car audio gear is generally far superior to the Madisounds...it is just kinda rare. The madisound stuff is pretty nice, but like my front speakers absolutely destroy them and are technically far superior, far better crossovers, etc...but retail at $450/pr. There are better still at $1800ish a set...and not just BS hyperbole either, actual audible improvements anyone can hear...but at what price is happiness?

I say stock PS drivers with decent quality basic 12db/oct passive crossovers, in active high pass sounds terrific. You should hear it, plenty of detail, excellent clarity, blah blah blah...but there are several $150/set (MSRP) speakers out there that don't sound as good.

Since audio gear is sold so cheap these days, it makes sense to pick out good closeout or discount gear when you can, as long as the quality is there. If you need to upgrade from the stock stuff, try and find some radical closeout deal. Those damn PPIs were of stunning quality, those were $450ish a set (MSRP) and they sold for $75/set.

[george graves]

Yeah, because lord knows we don't want anyone to actually LEARN something, do we?

I'm not into car audio like you are. For the people that are - I bet it's a fun albeit, expensive and often frustrating hobby. But, I just wanted something that sounds good, and not waist my money on something that didn't fit. I bet that's how most people are. I don't think that's unreasonable. ;)

[StereoInstaller1]

I'm not into car audio like you are. For the people that are - I bet it's a fun albeit, expensive and often frustrating hobby. But, I just wanted something that sounds good, and not waist my money on something that didn't fit. I bet that's how most people are. I don't think that's unreasonable. ;)

Well, seems to me most want to learn...as I answer about 30 PMs a day on that exact issue. After all, look how many threads have called me specifically, right?

I do get a LOT of PMs basically asking my "Recommended Setup", and all of those answers, uncluttered with retarded comments (but with all the useful ones) will be on my websites...when they get up and running, somewhere around April.

Switching from Installer to "Audio Tuner and Manufacturer" is one hell of a step. Busy literally 12 hours a day for a few months now, gonna get worse soon, I bet.

Now if I only had a good EE in my back pocket to design circuit boards, and a top notch digital tech who can hack the late-model BMW amps to do what I want...I have some products to get on the market.

[george graves]

Oh. Well considering the number of people that lurk and don't post, I would think it would be best to have a sticky with such information. We can't see your PM's - and I bet it's a PITA to answer each one. Why not a sticky?!?!?!

Now...if only there was someone on this forum that was both a moderator and knew car audio like the back of his hand that could do that....

hmm.... :) :) :) :) :) :)

[StereoInstaller1]

Oh. Well considering the number of people that lurk and don't post, I would think it would be best to have a sticky with such information. We can't see your PM's - and I bet it's a PITA to answer each one. Why not a sticky?!?!?!

Now...if only there was someone on this forum that was both a moderator and knew car audio like the back of his hand that could do that....

hmm.... :) :) :) :) :) :)

Never gonna happen...oh wait!

[bmwman91]

Yeah, because lord knows we don't want anyone to actually LEARN something, do we?

BTW: Proper top notch car audio gear is generally far superior to the Madisounds...it is just kinda rare. The madisound stuff is pretty nice, but like my front speakers absolutely destroy them and are technically far superior, far better crossovers, etc...but retail at $450/pr. There are better still at $1800ish a set...and not just BS hyperbole either, actual audible improvements anyone can hear...but at what price is happiness?

I say stock PS drivers with decent quality basic 12db/oct passive crossovers, in active high pass sounds terrific. You should hear it, plenty of detail, excellent clarity, blah blah blah...but there are several $150/set (MSRP) speakers out there that don't sound as good.

Since audio gear is sold so cheap these days, it makes sense to pick out good closeout or discount gear when you can, as long as the quality is there. If you need to upgrade from the stock stuff, try and find some radical closeout deal. Those damn PPIs were of stunning quality, those were $450ish a set (MSRP) and they sold for $75/set.

I definitely won't claim that my above speaker recommendations are the "best" at all. They are a good compromise that will outperform a lot of stuff that costs a number of times more. Not ALL expensive stuff is crap, you just have to be discerning. There are $300+ drivers on Madisound that have far superior harmonic distortion figures, and much higher power handling figures than the stuff I recommended. Hell, $300 isn't even close to the most expensive. Anyway, if one is dealing with a reputable company, more money can generally get you more quality and better performance. I wish I could hear Luke's system! I am sure I'd be unhappy with my setup after that.

Getting big performance out of relatively inexpensive drivers is fun, sort of like modding 20 year old German cars. It's part of the whole "sleeper" mentality I guess. Take something that doesn't look too impressive & have it perform surprisingly well.

[bmwman91]

Now if I only had a good EE in my back pocket to design circuit boards, and a top notch digital tech who can hack the late-model BMW amps to do what I want...I have some products to get on the market.

I'm not sure what you are thinking of, but I might be able to help you out. PM me if you want to discuss ideas.