M20 Management shootout, MS2 vs Haltech vs?

[TobyB]

Anyone want a hack up a manifold and put a maf sensor in each runner? Would be probably the only real test we can do haha

hmmm- pressure sensors, maybe...

and a fast logger.

t

[grifle]

Hey guys.

Finally got my MS3X after years of spectating on e30 tech. So sad that as soon as i got my crap together e30 tech is down. Must have been hacked by the Russians or something. lol

Anyway, @berlow. I think the $100 for the extra tuner studio features are a small price to pay. We already got into the tuning game for cheap with megasquirt, so a little extra here and there for features that you could only dream of a few years ago is not bad at all. For example, good aftermarket knock controllers can cost $600 and up. With the Megasquirt the price of admission is only $80 for the knock module and the same tunerstudio softare upgrade to program it. Not bad if you ask me.

I think I'm in $1000 dollars so far with MS3X, Innovative LC-2, the DIYBOB 55 pin adapter and temp sensor and TPS. Even after tuner studio upgrade you would still be under the price of other ECUs with those other hardware. I know MS is not the most rugged ECU case out there (try MS3 pro I guess)... but it really lowers the entry barrier IMO.

[ForcedFirebird]

Tuner studio Lite is free which gives you very limited tuning options.
Tuner studio MS is $60 and ultra is $100.

I only bring this up because "paying to unlock features" was mentioned.
All of the software and features on the "big brand" ecu's I mentioned are free.


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You aren't buying that because it's not available, you are paying for someone else to write that code for you. I understand what you are saying, but the definitions are editable without paying.

[MercyFlush]

Curious as to which of the bigger brands you are referring too. Non of the ones that I have experience with charge you for extra features.
The fact that MS wants $100 for their software puts a bad taste in my mouth personally.

I'd personally prefer to spend a little more $ up front and buy an ECU that can already do it all, rather then solder more wires on and have to create custom calibrations for simple things like a barometric correction sensor or actual closed loop knock control. O, and have a manufacture that i can call for support if i have a hardware problem.


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I might be a little outdated but the Motec's I have used previously have been extremely expensive. I'm talking like $2k+ just to get the wideband 'add on', then there was (iirc) another ridiculous cost to turn on the live tuning mode for the Speed Density mode.

That's really the only one I guess which has left a very bad taste in my mouth. I have never tried a cheaper ECU like a Haltech or such, but I have heard mixed reviews which generally seem positive. They are probably more akin to a megasquirt Pro than any of the Motec stuff.

I understand your view on the OEM style of device that you get with the bigger brands, however I tell you what, I like being able to write my own code for custom calibrations if required (such as real time fuel pressure monitoring and injector flow rate adjustment) as well as the support you have with MSextra (community developed) which is always getting better. I imagine the costs for getting something like that added into the other ECUs would be pretty large. I'd expect it'd be $180/hr at least.

Plus, if you buy a PNP megasquirt you get it literally ready to go, and can expand to the hardware limits with no incursion of additional software or licensing costs. Or if you bought a MS3 Pro you will get the full amount of add ins out of the box. It'll do your full sequential ignition/fuel, closed loop boost control, knock detection/response, so on. Also the baro correction is pretty much already fully setup anyway, just whip in another pressure transducer and tell the ecu it's there and you can do real time correction on pretty much all MS's.

[berlow94]

TunerStudio is free. You can see the code, and you know what you are doing, it's overly difficult to manipulate. Charging would be opposite of the open source MS strives to be.

Tuner studio Lite is free which gives you very limited tuning options.
Tuner studio MS is $60 and ultra is $100.

I only bring this up because "paying to unlock features" was mentioned.
All of the software and features on the "big brand" ecu's I mentioned are free.


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[ForcedFirebird]

TunerStudio is free. You can see the code, and you know what you are doing, it's overly difficult to manipulate. Charging would be opposite of the open source MS strives to be.

[berlow94]

It sounds like you're the one stuck in the dick measuring contest :devil:. I too have my Honors in Mechanical Engineering (Thesis on indirect calibration of Hot wire mass airflow sensors) and years of experience in FEM assisted design and industrial controls/automation. You don't hear me wanging on about it.



All I can see is people asking (very) relevant questions regarding your methods, which you seem to get disgruntled and defensive. You keep saying that others are 'experts' who wont listen. Try turning the tables. You're asking to have your thoughts/experiments taken as gospel...



Really you should be used to people asking annoyingly specific questions or questions relating to how you do things, especially since you're an engineer. I'm surprised you can't handle a few simple questions, or take the time to explain the reasoning of your results and their merit to those who might not understand.



IMHO CFD is most definitely reliant on accurate boundary conditions in a time dependency simulation. It looks like you're using Solidworks flow simulation to do the analysis which I assume you have setup the design to be time dependent and have determined the pressures at the cylinder inlets (from your excel sheet thingo as you mentioned). It sounds like you have done everything as it would be expected to get a true to life simulation in action. I have no reason to doubt the results you have obtained, I was just weighing in on a discussion I thought was going somewhere interesting

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For the record, I am running a DIYPNP on my M20B29 and have no real issues. I like the expandability of the megasquirt stuff and the fact I can make my own changes and implementation of the codes as required. I like that I can do whatever the heck I want and not have to jump through hoops unlike most of the bigger brands ;) (who will change you just to 'enable' a secondary wideband or EGT probes etc.).

Curious as to which of the bigger brands you are referring too. Non of the ones that I have experience with charge you for extra features.
The fact that MS wants $100 for their software puts a bad taste in my mouth personally.

I'd personally prefer to spend a little more $ up front and buy an ECU that can already do it all, rather then solder more wires on and have to create custom calibrations for simple things like a barometric correction sensor or actual closed loop knock control. O, and have a manufacture that i can call for support if i have a hardware problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MercyFlush]

I came here to offer information for everyone based on months of work, research, and repeatable experiments. I guess i have nothing to offer those that already know everything. You guys are a riot.

Since you're all experts in every field that's ever exited, you don't need me to tell you anything. I guess my 13 years in the field and college degrees have taught me nothing at all. oh well.

It sounds like you're the one stuck in the dick measuring contest :devil:. I too have my Honors in Mechanical Engineering (Thesis on indirect calibration of Hot wire mass airflow sensors) and years of experience in FEM assisted design and industrial controls/automation. You don't hear me wanging on about it.

All I can see is people asking (very) relevant questions regarding your methods, which you seem to get disgruntled and defensive. You keep saying that others are 'experts' who wont listen. Try turning the tables. You're asking to have your thoughts/experiments taken as gospel...

Really you should be used to people asking annoyingly specific questions or questions relating to how you do things, especially since you're an engineer. I'm surprised you can't handle a few simple questions, or take the time to explain the reasoning of your results and their merit to those who might not understand.

IMHO CFD is most definitely reliant on accurate boundary conditions in a time dependency simulation. It looks like you're using Solidworks flow simulation to do the analysis which I assume you have setup the design to be time dependent and have determined the pressures at the cylinder inlets (from your excel sheet thingo as you mentioned). It sounds like you have done everything as it would be expected to get a true to life simulation in action. I have no reason to doubt the results you have obtained, I was just weighing in on a discussion I thought was going somewhere interesting
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For the record, I am running a DIYPNP on my M20B29 and have no real issues. I like the expandability of the megasquirt stuff and the fact I can make my own changes and implementation of the codes as required. I like that I can do whatever the heck I want and not have to jump through hoops unlike most of the bigger brands ;) (who will change you just to 'enable' a secondary wideband or EGT probes etc.).

[digger]

http://twinkam.co.uk/epages/191f6b26-60bf-483c-b021-755a0c9099c1.mobile/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/191f6b26-60bf-483c-b021-755a0c9099c1/Products/SC299

[ForcedFirebird]

Nice find, they have a pnp for the m42. I was just considering running ms2 on the s38b36, they have an option for that, I can't read german, what software would you use to tune it? Tunerstudio?

In the upper right corner, you will see a German and UK flag. Click on the UK and it will translate for you ;)

http://www.k-data.org/kdfi-pnp-bmw-m5-s38b36.html

[downforce22]

Seems like it's a pretty comprehensive kit. On board lambda control, Microsquirt and ~$750 with shipping and a Bosch sensor.

Nice find, they have a pnp for the m42. I was just considering running ms2 on the s38b36, they have an option for that, I can't read german, what software would you use to tune it? Tunerstudio?

[ForcedFirebird]

anyway back on track.......... anyone know anything about this? another MS PNP ?

http://www.k-data.org/kdfi-pnp-bmw-m20.html

Seems like it's a pretty comprehensive kit. On board lambda control, Microsquirt and ~$750 with shipping and a Bosch sensor.

[digger]

anyway back on track.......... anyone know anything about this? another MS PNP ?

http://www.k-data.org/kdfi-pnp-bmw-m20.html

[digger]

For the first time I felt like using a reaction GIF. Something with a valley girl holding star bucks saying "OMG" but I'm not going to google it.

@Digger: dude, you know a LOT. I often send people your way if they are in kangarooland, but you've got a huge misconception about how the tests works, what and where I am measuring, and the phrase "boundary condition".

Look, you people are obviously wildly misunderstanding everything about even the basics of what I am doing. Trying to avidly find fault with something you don't know about, while letting a nearly useless benchtest off the hook as definitive? Right. Do any of you even know the NAME of the program that I use? Or the basics of how it works? Okay.

And John, you disagreed with me, send me a link that proved what I was saying, then tried to disagree while agreeing with me? I don't get it, man.

I'm out.

It's ok I've been doing engineering simulation ( don't mix test and simulation terminology it's confusing anything within the software is not a test and doesn't measure anything unless you're doing a physical test or experiment.) for well over a decade so I actually know a thing or two about the approach for doing these things and getting them to match physical tests without it basically being a trial and error pretty picture generator.

You haven't done a good job explaining what you did with your boundary conditions but it sounds like it's just an assumption ( years ago when I used the older version of solidworks flow program which is what it looks like you might be using, it asked for pressure vs time table input which you could apply to the face being the outlet ). My assumption is its unlikely you've used a high speed pressure transducer to get real data at each crank angle and input this into the boundary condition as its expensive equipment. What did you input exactly and what format. So your assumption may not be right is all I'm saying, sometimes it doesn't matter if its just a relative comparison but It depends what you're actually hoping to get from the analysis. The true behaviour at the boundary is a lot more complicated than you think and if you don't capture this you might not get what you want from the analysis because of potentially false assumptions.

[ForcedFirebird]

And John, you disagreed with me, send me a link that proved what I was saying, then tried to disagree while agreeing with me? I don't get it, man

Huh?

Told you I was just wrapping my head around what you are doing and what was involved.