High AFR's WOT.

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  • ak-
    R3V OG
    • May 2009
    • 12422

    #1

    High AFR's WOT.

    Okay, I'm getting really frustrated now & I usually turn to the forums as a last resort after researching and dabbling on my own.
    I would post on e30tech, but I'm banned for whatever reason.

    What you need to know:
    M20
    3.5" Miller Maf
    173, No WAR chip.
    Draw-thru setup. (MAF before Turbo)
    42lbs Injectors
    Walbro 255
    LC-1 Wideband
    TiAL mvr
    Grimspeed MBC
    Brand new spark plugs, 1 step colder gapped to .025 I believe

    Tuned by Dan Miller himself on the Dyno.
    12psi
    12.5 AFR
    91 octane

    I don't have logging.


    Alright so I've been having problems on and off with WOT AFR's.
    When I have the throttle pinned and reach full boost, 12psi, my AFR's sometimes hit high 13's and even 14's which I immediately let off. I can hear the engine "suffering", to which I think is pinging. When everything is running dandy, I'm around 12.5 AFRs. These ratios happen sometimes, and sometimes they don't.

    Although, from 0 - 10psi(part throttle or almost full throttle, but not letting it hit full boost by modulating the pedal), my AFR's are a healthy 11 - 12 and it pulls retardedly well. The problem comes only when I'm WOT, pedal pinned, and in full boost.

    What I've done:
    -Taped a fuel gauge to my windshield and went for a drive on the freeway. There is no erratic movement @ idle, part, full throttle. I can't remember what it was WOT, but I think 44psi. Idle was steady as well; no concern for a failing pump.
    -Cleaned the MAF and element plenty of times.
    -Pressure tested my BOV. It checks out.
    -Wastegate is brand new, TiAL vband mvr.
    -Tighten and re-tighten all hoses and clamps.

    What I think:
    -Does this sound like a shitty TPS? I know m20 TPS's are switched, unlike M50 ones.
    So it's either idle, or WOT. It does click when I push the butterfly, but maybe it's oil soaked or faulty. IDK. Next step is to clean it I suppose since I don't have a replacement and testing it confuses me with the online tutorials. I'll update when I do that.
    -I do have a wee bit of oil coming from the outlet on the turbo when I remove the MAF/Intake which leads me to believe that it's messing up the MAF readings. Though I don't know if it's the turbo, or the crank case hose/catch can exit line. But, why are my part throttles up to 10 psi so good? Physics tells me that any leaking oil while in motion should be just sucked thru the turbo and into my exhaust or intake? Could the oil be messing with the sensor on the wideband?
    -ECU Coolant temperature sensor. This is usually for idle, but does the ECU rely on it while the throttle is open? I'll replace it anyways and update. My idle isn't the greatest half the time on start up, but it corrects itself in around 30 seconds without me touching the throttle. Starts @ 18 AFR and adjusts to 14.7 on it's own after a while.
    -FPR. IDK. Fuel pressure was pinned WOT and idle.


    The car was JUST re-tuned by Dan, and it ran amazing. Very smooth graph till 6.5rpm
    The next day and few days after, I started getting these problems which lead me to believe the tune just was a band-aid for whatever is going on, so I'm ruling out tuning.


    Any help is appreciated. I'll update as I go.
    Last edited by ak-; 11-14-2012, 08:30 PM.

    1991 325iS turbo

  • Cronopoulos
    R3VLimited
    • Jul 2011
    • 2187

    #2
    Personally, have the tune re-examined....

    Possible a faulty O2 sensor reading?


    Project log -- DIRTY 30

    2.7i * Megasquirt tuned * E85 powered

    Comment

    • ak-
      R3V OG
      • May 2009
      • 12422

      #3
      Originally posted by Cronopoulos
      Personally, have the tune re-examined....
      I really want to rule that out.
      I was there while tuning and talking back and forth. It ran cherry the whole day after playing in the streets from excitement till I shut it off and woke up for school the next day and following week.

      That's why I think the tune was a band-aid for whatever is going on.

      Happens sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't.
      Today it shot to 14 again and then an hour later it was 12.3 static 2nd to 4th.

      1991 325iS turbo

      Comment

      • Dj Buttchug
        R3V OG
        • Jun 2010
        • 7640

        #4
        what is your injector duty cycle @ WOT?

        Turbo M42 Build Thread :Here
        Ig:ryno_pzk
        I like the tuna here.
        Originally posted by lambo
        Buttchug. The official poster child of r3v.

        Comment

        • Cronopoulos
          R3VLimited
          • Jul 2011
          • 2187

          #5
          Originally posted by ak-
          I really want to rule that out.
          I was there while tuning and talking back and forth. It ran cherry the whole day after playing in the streets from excitement till I shut it off and woke up for school the next day and following week.

          That's why I think the tune was a band-aid for whatever is going on.

          Happens sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't.
          Today it shot to 14 again and then an hour later it was 12.3 static 2nd to 4th.
          True but it sounds like a fuel delivery issue more than anything, buttchug may be on to something as well. I would say ~42lb injectors would be plenty capable to handling 12psi on a conservative tune though IMO...

          Either way I would just have your tuner look over the tune again and let him know what it's doing...


          Project log -- DIRTY 30

          2.7i * Megasquirt tuned * E85 powered

          Comment

          • ak-
            R3V OG
            • May 2009
            • 12422

            #6
            Originally posted by Dj Buttchug
            what is your injector duty cycle @ WOT?
            I asked Dan, and I forget.
            It's not close to maxing out at all though.

            It's his Miller Bosch 42lb/hr injectors

            1991 325iS turbo

            Comment

            • ak-
              R3V OG
              • May 2009
              • 12422

              #7
              Originally posted by Cronopoulos
              True but it sounds like a fuel delivery issue more than anything, buttchug may be on to something as well. I would say ~42lb injectors would be plenty capable to handling 12psi on a conservative tune though IMO...

              Either way I would just have your tuner look over the tune again and let him know what it's doing...
              Yeah it does sounds like a fuel issue I guess.
              I've emailed Dan and we, Castro included, seem to think it's a mechanical issue now.
              Maybe 1 injector isn't on par?

              It's hard to get scheduled though and leave my car at a shop for a while since I need it, so I would like to do everything I can before utilizing that option.

              Appreciate your response.

              1991 325iS turbo

              Comment

              • Dj Buttchug
                R3V OG
                • Jun 2010
                • 7640

                #8
                What if motronic is causing the high AF at WOT. Ak you said the car was retuned and then it was cherry for a few days... Motronic may be adjusting after a certain number of drive cycles causing you to experience lean conditions after some drive time...???

                Turbo M42 Build Thread :Here
                Ig:ryno_pzk
                I like the tuna here.
                Originally posted by lambo
                Buttchug. The official poster child of r3v.

                Comment

                • ak-
                  R3V OG
                  • May 2009
                  • 12422

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Dj Buttchug
                  What if motronic is causing the high AF at WOT. Ak you said the car was retuned and then it was cherry for a few days... Motronic may be adjusting after a certain number of drive cycles causing you to experience lean conditions after some drive time...???
                  Hmm. Could you go into more detail?
                  It was great for only 1 day actually, then it comes and goes with the lean conditions.

                  sadface.

                  I still think it's something mechanical, IDK why.
                  Why only WOT though? 0 to anything below full boost is great, reading around 11 - 12. As soon as I pin the throttle and hit full boost, it shoot lean.

                  Though like I said, it happens sometimes.

                  1991 325iS turbo

                  Comment

                  • Dj Buttchug
                    R3V OG
                    • Jun 2010
                    • 7640

                    #10
                    the WOT part confuses me to but it may be because the subtle changes that motronic is making are only noticeable when the engine is in very high demand.

                    Motronic will always try to be most efficient in closed loop. It will essentially lean the car out as much as possible (or until it reads a potentially dangerous AFR) then it will deliver just a little bit more fuel. basically it can constantly make minimal changes to obtain the best fuel consumption.

                    Theres a chance that after a certain period of time 3 or more drive cycles are complete and motronic will then begin to run the leaner condition injector cycle causing lean conditions. The reason its only noticeable at WOT is because thats when the engine needs the most fuel and its suddenly getting just a tad bit less.... thus the pinging/detonation/fuck my life i need to go full standalone.

                    I donno im just spitballin here. I could be totally wrong

                    Turbo M42 Build Thread :Here
                    Ig:ryno_pzk
                    I like the tuna here.
                    Originally posted by lambo
                    Buttchug. The official poster child of r3v.

                    Comment

                    • ak-
                      R3V OG
                      • May 2009
                      • 12422

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Dj Buttchug
                      the WOT part confuses me to but it may be because the subtle changes that motronic is making are only noticeable when the engine is in very high demand.

                      Motronic will always try to be most efficient in closed loop. It will essentially lean the car out as much as possible (or until it reads a potentially dangerous AFR) then it will deliver just a little bit more fuel. basically it can constantly make minimal changes to obtain the best fuel consumption.

                      Theres a chance that after a certain period of time 3 or more drive cycles are complete and motronic will then begin to run the leaner condition injector cycle causing lean conditions. The reason its only noticeable at WOT is because thats when the engine needs the most fuel and its suddenly getting just a tad bit less.... thus the pinging/detonation/fuck my life i need to go full standalone.

                      I donno im just spitballin here. I could be totally wrong
                      That makes somewhat sense to me yeah.
                      So because Motronic is a stupid 4th grader, and I drive in vacuum 85% of the time, and it gets used to that vacuum driving condition in closed loop/adjusting, is it saying "OH SHIT ADJUST FUEL DAMMIT" when I decide to go WOT all of a sudden? And then it can't keep up for those few seconds in WOT? Or it adjusts slow?

                      1991 325iS turbo

                      Comment

                      • Dj Buttchug
                        R3V OG
                        • Jun 2010
                        • 7640

                        #12
                        Originally posted by ak-
                        That makes somewhat sense to me yeah.
                        So because Motronic is a stupid 4th grader, and I drive in vacuum 85% of the time, and it gets used to that vacuum driving condition in closed loop/adjusting, is it saying "OH SHIT ADJUST FUEL DAMMIT" when I decide to go WOT all of a sudden? And then it can't keep up for those few seconds in WOT? Or it adjusts slow?

                        in theory yes. thats exactly what can happen in specific situations. We would be able to better diagnose this if we had some data log stuff to look at.

                        its also already having to deal with WAY larger injectors than normal. You need to go MAP, but aside from all that theres no reason that this cant be fixed on the tune you have now.

                        Turbo M42 Build Thread :Here
                        Ig:ryno_pzk
                        I like the tuna here.
                        Originally posted by lambo
                        Buttchug. The official poster child of r3v.

                        Comment

                        • 5Toes
                          Banned
                          • May 2010
                          • 9836

                          #13
                          Whats confusing about testing the tps?

                          Its a simple continuity check at full throttle and at idle.

                          Comment

                          • ak-
                            R3V OG
                            • May 2009
                            • 12422

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Dj Buttchug
                            in theory yes. thats exactly what can happen in specific situations. We would be able to better diagnose this if we had some data log stuff to look at.

                            its also already having to deal with WAY larger injectors than normal. You need to go MAP, but aside from all that theres no reason that this cant be fixed on the tune you have now.
                            I wish I have logging available.
                            Going MAP is eventually what I plan on doing way down the road. I strongly believe it can be fixed, but I really really don't think it's the tune.
                            Dan spent a good time fine tuning it and like I said it was perfect until I let the car sit over night.
                            I still think it's mechanical. There are 3 other turbo 173 cars running properly at the shop that Dan has tuned.

                            I'll clean out my possibly oil-fouled TPS and update Friday.

                            1991 325iS turbo

                            Comment

                            • e30trooper
                              R3V OG
                              • Mar 2009
                              • 11576

                              #15
                              time for MS brodeo

                              Comment

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