getting WAR chip and MAF..but which throttle body upgrade?

[nando]

a cam upgrade is going to make a much, much larger difference than an upsized TB. Especially when turbo.

why would you run a MAF if you're going turbo? the car didn't come with one, it doesn't make sense to spend money on a MAF if you can use a MAP sensor instead.

also - it doesn't matter if your engine is SOHC or DOHC. actually, bang for your $ is probably significantly higher on an M20 cam upgrade than an M5x. Just look at the cost difference - only the cams is going to be over $1000 for an M5x. that's without uprated valve springs or lifters. you can do a decent cam for under $400 that works fine with stock springs and rockers, which there are also half as many to replace.

[Brandon12V]

this thread is a bit of a trainwreck - but to say that a cam won't make any difference because it's SOHC is hilariously untrue. but you think changing the TB on a stock motor will make a difference?



this is total, absolute nonsense.

a camshaft upgrade is used to increase VE (engine breathing potential). an engine that breathes better NA (higher VE) will also breathe better and make more power when turbo'd. For a given boost level, an engine with an upgraded cam will make a lot more power, likely sooner, than one with a stock cam.

While you are right, I am not wrong. Some people are not looking to make the most hp they can from a camshaft. They're looking for where the power is going to be most usable and when it comes on. Lets say your block was a completely built NA monster in your dd car... Would you want a 304 shrick in it? I wouldn't. While you might make more power I'd still rather have a 272 or maybe a 284 so I could get some lower end use out of my powerband. Turbo or not, this would still apply. A SOHC motor isnt exactly the best example. Obviously there is more to it than this. For example Engine CFM, Intake plenum volume, intake runner length, and exhaust runner length will affect this. I'm not disagreeing with you that a camshaft is used to make more power, but there comes a point where it's not about that anymore. Most people would agree that build an engine with specific purpose... not just making that extra horsepower while revving to the sky all day long.

[nando]

your comment that a cam merely shifts the powerband around is what I was taking issue with. of course a 304 will be more peaky than a 284. that still doesn't mean a 284 with boost will make a significant difference in power, everywhere, over a stock cam. you do a cam upgrade to increase HP, not change the location of the powerband. if you want to do that, you get an adjustable cam gear.

[VinniE30]

Id still like to understand why a bigger throttle body like I posted is a bad idea for a car that will have a turbo slapped on. wouldnt that make a larger MAF just as stupid.

The reason people upgrade to a larger throttle body is so the intake tract diameter is larger and thus can flow more air through... BUT - this only actually works when the throttle body is the biggest restriction! Basically your flow is only as good as the weakest link in the intake track. This may or may not be the throttle body. For the weakest link to be the throttle body your whole intake track must be of a larger diameter than the throttle body. ONLY then would it benefit you.

Same goes for the MAF. If you have a 3" MAF and the rest of the intake is 2.5" in diamater then it's not benefitting you as far as airflow.
BUT - The main reason people upgrade from an AFM to a MAF is that the sensor on a MAF can read the airflow more accurately at high airspeeds (ie. when at full throttle).

If you are going from a AFM to a MAF then there MIGHT be a small increase in airflow because of the "barn door" on the AFM but that is most likely insignificant - the throttle body when fully opened probably impacts the airflow going through it just as the "barn door" does, creating turbulence. There could, theoretically also be an increase in throttle response since the flap in the AFM wouldn't have to open as there is just a little sensor in a MAF.

This draws parallels to the s50/52 people upgrading from the stock S50/S52 MAF to the euro one or a porsche one:
The benefit is that the sensor is designed to read the airflow more accurately at higher speeds; and it would only benefit you if you're putting a lot more air through there(ie. if you went turbo, like you said). Think of it like this: a truck weighing scale is more accurate at weighing very large weights while one of the little drug weighing scales is more accurate at weighing very small weights. It's more difficult to design it to be the best at everything.

[Brandon12V]

I didn't mean it would move/shift it if that's how it came off. I apologize if that's what I said. I meant using a different camshaft would literally change the look of your powerband on a chart(for better or worse). I was talking about lobe separation and duration which affect how long/broad the powerband is and how early peak torque will be made, respectively. As such, you need to choose a camshaft and its characteristics by the size of the turbo, or vice versa, for optimal performance. I'm just saying don't go buying the biggest degree you can find or what everyone suggest... do a little math and figure out what camshaft is perfect for what you are building.

[ROLLingKING]

im just reading and soaking it in. thanks guys. idk why im so down to waste money. I want every goodie possible.haha

[devon.818]

im just reading and soaking it in. thanks guys. idk why im so down to waste money. I want every goodie possible.haha

well thats just because you're a guy.

[ROLLingKING]

just to update, i think ill still get the miller maf and war chip. ill need to call miller and get the scoop on the war room being gone

[The Humjet]

Your better off going ms. Whodwho is the guys to speak to he builds ms boards and installs them inside the factory motronic ecu box. So it looks stock and fits in its proper place. And is plug n play. Very easy and costs about the same as a w.a.r chip and Maf.
Plus you can use it when your car is NA and learn how the basics of tuning and when its turbo time you can tune again. The way the w.a.r chip works is your altering a base map that miller provide. Good luck tuning from scratch. Ms has far more features that will help you tune easier such as live tuning and has a built-in data logger. It's a real standalone ems.
For NA the w.a.r chip is fine but when you start tuning for boost thats when you start reaching its limitations.
For now I'd get a HD clutch. MS2 from whodwho and a 3.73 LSD if you haven't got one already.

[jaywood]

I see no reason to not get MS, whodwho makes it so easy.


Have you thought about going turbo right from the start? I bet it'll satisfy your wants and you'll still have $ left over.

[The Humjet]

And a clutch is something you'll have to do anyway. The stock one will rip to shreds once you go turbo.
Camshafts is also a nice upgrade. Most guys do without. But when your running short runner intake manifold, equal length turbo manifold and some good head porting and oversized valves the motor really come into its own with a 284 schrick camshaft.
I doubt you'll go that route. Maybe with more experience and knowledge down the road you can start focusing on the tiny details. For now keep it simple and read up Jordan's thread on e30tech. And add megasquirt.

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74816

[deutschman]

Get head work done! Good money spent.

[ROLLingKING]

The reason people upgrade to a larger throttle body is so the intake tract diameter is larger and thus can flow more air through... BUT - this only actually works when the throttle body is the biggest restriction! Basically your flow is only as good as the weakest link in the intake track. This may or may not be the throttle body. For the weakest link to be the throttle body your whole intake track must be of a larger diameter than the throttle body. ONLY then would it benefit you.

Same goes for the MAF. If you have a 3" MAF and the rest of the intake is 2.5" in diamater then it's not benefitting you as far as airflow.
BUT - The main reason people upgrade from an AFM to a MAF is that the sensor on a MAF can read the airflow more accurately at high airspeeds (ie. when at full throttle).

If you are going from a AFM to a MAF then there MIGHT be a small increase in airflow because of the "barn door" on the AFM but that is most likely insignificant - the throttle body when fully opened probably impacts the airflow going through it just as the "barn door" does, creating turbulence. There could, theoretically also be an increase in throttle response since the flap in the AFM wouldn't have to open as there is just a little sensor in a MAF.

This draws parallels to the s50/52 people upgrading from the stock S50/S52 MAF to the euro one or a porsche one:
The benefit is that the sensor is designed to read the airflow more accurately at higher speeds; and it would only benefit you if you're putting a lot more air through there(ie. if you went turbo, like you said). Think of it like this: a truck weighing scale is more accurate at weighing very large weights while one of the little drug weighing scales is more accurate at weighing very small weights. It's more difficult to design it to be the best at everything.

I just read all of this. thanks man. it makes sense also.
the part about my intake having to be larger than the rest of the throttle body tho i dont think has to be true. let me know if im wrong. if i have a 3in maf and the big throttle body as posted, those are the first 2 things that come off the manifold. after the maf i could extend 3in pipe and add my CAI set up on the end. even if my intake set up is only 2.5in that decrease in size is okay. if it were the other way around with the smaller diameter piping coming right out of the manifold and getting larger at the air filter piping, i think thatd be counter productive. did that even make sense?lol
im gonna hold of on getting the big throttle body till i have the turbo ready but it should be dope

[ROLLingKING]

I see no reason to not get MS, whodwho makes it so easy.


Have you thought about going turbo right from the start? I bet it'll satisfy your wants and you'll still have $ left over.

And a clutch is something you'll have to do anyway. The stock one will rip to shreds once you go turbo.
Camshafts is also a nice upgrade. Most guys do without. But when your running short runner intake manifold, equal length turbo manifold and some good head porting and oversized valves the motor really come into its own with a 284 schrick camshaft.
I doubt you'll go that route. Maybe with more experience and knowledge down the road you can start focusing on the tiny details. For now keep it simple and read up Jordan's thread on e30tech. And add megasquirt.
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74816

I think you 2 may be right. i just see all the wires for megasquirt and get really scared. I AM NOT AN ELECTRICIAN.lol but im gonna try contacting this whodwho..my main thing tho is i want to get rid of this fugly, heavy stock AFM. maybe ill just wait.

But now im seriously thinking about MS. i can take out my ecu and whodwho puts it all together for me? like what elso do I have to do on my end to install. the thing I liked about miller was that it was VERY plug and play.

thanks the humjet and jaywood for the heads up. ive even seen cars runing turbo on MS but i thought miller could keep up. it sounds like it doesnt do turbo well tho

[jaywood]

There are lots of options as far as tuning goes. There are several chips on the market for turbo e30s but when it all comes down to it, standalone is the way to go. I'm currently on a turbo chip from eBay. If the kit I got didn't come with it I would have gone MS.


Whodwho makes MS "plug and play". Contact him!