getting WAR chip and MAF..but which throttle body upgrade?

[ROLLingKING]

So ive finally decided to increase the HP & torque more important on the ol M20. Im sending my ecu into miller since i just had surgery and am in no rush, and i just want it installed the right way. I want to upgrade as much as I can to get some good NA power results. Ive got most of it figured out but im clueless as to how to make the throttle body bigger. Which ones are a good swap or is there not one out there thats even worth it?

Thanks for the help R3v

[Kershaw]

you want n/a power, do it in this order:

headers
cams
larger injectors
dme

--------

now related to the question at the end... miller has a m30 tb for the m20. that's your upgrade right there.

[ROLLingKING]

i dont see it.lol but a m20 only has one cam so i dont think cams will do much. im gonna look around google more for m20's with larger throttle bodies

[MonkeyMan]

I spoke to Brody at Miller regarding the M30 t-body adapter for the M20 and he said it's an idea they've been kicking around for a while and they actually made a prototype, but they haven't put one into production.. yet.
He did put me down as a +1 for the t-body adapter though, since I'm definitely not the first to be interested if they decided to start producing it...

I've been doing a lot of research on the subject though and what I've learned is that, for what most guys will be doing to the M20, the stock t-body is more than sufficient - and the bottleneck when it comes to n/a tuning is usually the intake manifold itself.. installing a larger t-body will not really net any gains worth the money/trouble unless you maximized the flow potential of the head (ie cam), and addressed the intake manifold / intake assembly (ie extrude hone, Miller PSIK, cold air, etc) first..

my .02

[Bearmw]

Jim at Metric Mechanic told me a while ago that a 3.90 small lsd combined with a lighter flywheel are 2 of the best bang for the buck upgrades on a stock or near stock B25. Then I would consider a Mark D chip or Miller setup or something similar. If you are going to eventually get beyond the 200 hp range, then the small rear won't last for long.

What rear are you running now and what goals do you have in mind? Are you getting the traction you want with what you have? As far as spending big bucks on things like extrude honed intake and such I think that is a waste of money. You could spend crazy money on stuff like that but there are better ways to spend your money on a B25. First make sure everything is running the way it is supposed to before adding a bunch of performance parts. Once you see how a well tuned B25 runs then you can make better choices for mods.

As a small project I cleaned up my stock throttle body a bit by carefully knife edging the plate and cleaning up casting imperfection. Also I carefully port matched my intake to the head. These litle mods won't gain me a whole lot but I enjoy tweaking what already works well without reinventing the wheel. After things like this a mild cam and exhaust upgrade is noticeable but going for more eventually means increasing displacement. I'm a fan of the 2.8 stroker with stock i pistons as a good bang for the buck upgrade. Beyond that level when you start talking custom pistons then expect to see your savings rapidly depleted to get the results you want.

[ROLLingKING]

I spoke to Brody at Miller regarding the M30 t-body adapter for the M20 and he said it's an idea they've been kicking around for a while and they actually made a prototype, but they haven't put one into production.. yet.
He did put me down as a +1 for the t-body adapter though, since I'm definitely not the first to be interested if they decided to start producing it...

I've been doing a lot of research on the subject though and what I've learned is that, for what most guys will be doing to the M20, the stock t-body is more than sufficient - and the bottleneck when it comes to n/a tuning is usually the intake manifold itself.. installing a larger t-body will not really net any gains worth the money/trouble unless you maximized the flow potential of the head (ie cam), and addressed the intake manifold / intake assembly (ie extrude hone, Miller PSIK, cold air, etc) first..

my .02

that was a well put 0.02. Thanks for that. I was afraid I was going to be made fun of for not looking for the M30 t-body adapter.lol
But i agree a lot with what u and bearmw said.

Jim at Metric Mechanic told me a while ago that a 3.90 small lsd combined with a lighter flywheel are 2 of the best bang for the buck upgrades on a stock or near stock B25. Then I would consider a Mark D chip or Miller setup or something similar. If you are going to eventually get beyond the 200 hp range, then the small rear won't last for long.

What rear are you running now and what goals do you have in mind? Are you getting the traction you want with what you have? As far as spending big bucks on things like extrude honed intake and such I think that is a waste of money. You could spend crazy money on stuff like that but there are better ways to spend your money on a B25. First make sure everything is running the way it is supposed to before adding a bunch of performance parts. Once you see how a well tuned B25 runs then you can make better choices for mods.

As a small project I cleaned up my stock throttle body a bit by carefully knife edging the plate and cleaning up casting imperfection. Also I carefully port matched my intake to the head. These litle mods won't gain me a whole lot but I enjoy tweaking what already works well without reinventing the wheel. After things like this a mild cam and exhaust upgrade is noticeable but going for more eventually means increasing displacement. I'm a fan of the 2.8 stroker with stock i pistons as a good bang for the buck upgrade. Beyond that level when you start talking custom pistons then expect to see your savings rapidly depleted to get the results you want.

So im going to kind of answer both of u. I should have put more info into the first post probably. I totally agree that it is first priority to to have the stock motor running proper first. And everything is clean/all sensors work well.

When I said I wanted to increase the NA power some it was because the motor will only be NA till the spring/summer. I have a 87 325is with a 3.73 LSD. I bought the car to learn how to drift. Im not in a HUGE rush so ive started the learning process on the stock motor. Yea I could keep it stock but its a slow car in straight lines.lol So while I save up and look for parts like turbo and intercooler and such I want to enjoy some power upgrades that will translate well to a turbo setup also. Im not trying to build a NA beast, ill put it that way. NA takes a lot of money and machining.

I have been skeptical about an aggressive cam because its a SOHC and because im gonna be turboing the M20. If a cam helps with flow that much tho I may want to look into a cam...right, what do u think?

So thats why im getting the WAR chip and MAF. I already have an intake set up i enjoy and since the M20 will be turbo i dont want to invest into the PSIK. Id have to chop up the piping if i did. And i think the WAR chip with MAF will yield better power results! since ill be able to play with the numbers. PSIK only comes with a chip and a tune your stuck with.

So theres the whole scoop. It would have bebn cool to do the WAR, MAF and t-body upgrade so I could tell miller what to set the base tune to. And Bearmw let me tell u, im in no way trying to reinvent the wheel.lol Im not advanced enough to do these things yet. Maybe some day!lol
so before i turbo the car im getting the miller shit. thats this week.

Should I be looking into cams for a turbo M20 tho? i dont really see many ppl doing this. I just wanted to refresh internals and turbo it. MAAAYBE even put an eta block in for more displacement. but i dont have one yet

[ROLLingKING]

oh and bearmw sorry i type so much but i enjoy learning.lol what do u mean port matched the intake to the head? what i take from it is that the holes for the intake manifold are larger than the holes on the head where they meet. porting them flush would absolutely increase flow efficiency. cause extrude honed intakes are super expensive. ive taken that out of my dreams a while ago.haha

but at the same time is there anything I can do to my intake manifold that will be worth the effort once its got a turbo? i think im better off upgrading things like fuel pump, injectors, and exhaust. with the WAR chip that should be fun and a good learning process before i mess with turbo tuning

[devon.818]

Throttle body? Really?
You won't notice a damn thing!

I had the miller maf, was not impressed. Not worth the money. War chip not worth it at all, since miller closed war room no point.
Just get a normal chip, markD, midnight tuning, trm, ect

And why the f upgrade fuel pump if yours works and you're not going turbo?
Here.
19# injectors, chip, 272 cam, CAI, straight pipes, and a 4.10lsd.
More than enough.

Another thing, cams do a lot. Jeez. Do you really believe what you say? Or do you just have so much BS in your head you can't sort out good ideas from asshatery?

You know what, bbtb will get you a good 50hp, do it, also stickers are good for 10hp each! Oh and start wearing a helmet while driving, that adds cool points which you can substitute for HP when you level up

[ROLLingKING]

^ ill wait for some actual knowledge to respond to this thread. but devon, go look at m20 turbo builds. do u see ppl shelling out cash for cams on those builds? And why would i get 19lb injectors just to get bigger ones in the spring for a turbo set up.
Let me be clear, i am not a mechanic. i just enjoy being in the seat and driving. It just so happens to enjoy more I have to get my hands dirty and upgrade some things. im talking like a walbro 255 and 40somethin lb injectors with a turbo set up. and cams in a SOHC is not like cams in a DOHC. to me its not exactly worth it. if i wanted to build a NA with cams it would not be a SOHC. i would swap. but then again all i need is enough power to slide and enjoy myself.
And why do u act like u know everything about my car. I think my fuel pump actually does needs to be replaced. cruise to skyline drive brought up a symptom ive never experienced.
i find it interesting all this comes from a guy who isnt patient enough to PERSONALLY know the first steps of slowly reaching a goal. all u do is buy a car with the work already done as soon as u get sick of your car. and btw a t-body would be a nice upgrade. drifting is pedal sensitive, so if i can do more to make it respond to small throttle inputs thatd be great. and i think i would notice the diff in the seat.

I probably shouldnt have responded to your clown as comment. as ive tried not responding to your smart ass at all anymore.

So bearmw and monkeyman lets get back to the discussion and not worry about the previous post please and thank you.lol

oh and devon, notice how they actually tried talking with me on the issue, not talking AT me. they also didnt go ahead and try and tell me which direction I should go in. just gave advice, respectfully might i add

[ROLLingKING]

and u shit on my last thread like this.

spend your money on PDR. not that expensive, they charge per panel, i have a great guy, doing my whole car for 150 next week.


dude, ever notice everytime you post a thread it gets DRAWN THE FUCK OUT because you argue with people and refuse to take advice. dont post for advice and expect us to all agree with you, or try to reinvent the wheel so to speak.

seriously man, chill. dont be so sensitive or confrontational.

oh and YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!

[ROLLingKING]

so surfin around the forum i found this....monkey man posted there also.lol http://www.westcoastriots.com/htmlfiles/Products.html

Pretty dope. devon did say something that caught my attention tho. Miller closed the war room?? that would leave me by myself to figure out tuning wouldnt it.

maybe i should look at megasquirt. idk tho. megasquirt is really intimidating.

bearmw & monkey man, does a miller maf with that riot racing big bore TB and megasquirt sound possible. cause id have to get a chip to run the miller MAF. but then is it possible to run megasquirt with a miller maf chip on there. that seems redundant to me but im not sure if megasquirt would be able to read the MAF. i dont think ive sen it done. yes im confused.lol i just dont want to buy anymore shit and return it after learning more
Thanks guys for helping me iron out the wrinkles!

[Brandon12V]

Kinda disappointed to hear about the war room. If you go ms, get on e30tech. There's a lot of guys on there using ms but are mostly turbo at this point. Regardless, some of them probably still have maps for NA. Just use a MAP sensor. There's a guy on this forum or e30tech who sells a "ready to go" ms kit. Can't remember who it is but you'll want ms for turbo down the line(over the war chip). My advice would be to save your money and only invest in parts that will still turn a profit after you sell them in used condition. A good chip(markD/conforti), 4:10lsd, cam(maybe), & a nice exhaust setup are all you really need. Throw in a nice lightweight flywheel/clutch setup if you're ready to do it. Upgrade your mounts and suspension where it's needed. The most essential thing is think about where you want your car to be when you're "finished" and stick to a cost efficient plan. I understand the desire for temporary satisfaction, but do it right the first time(i.e. keep the whole picture in mind with every purchase). Don't waste money on parts you'll be getting rid of in 1-5 years(unless you like doing so).
On the subject of guys using a "upgraded" cam with turbo setups..... A camshaft is mainly used to change the powerband, not necessarily increase horsepower. With a turbo, most guys want the torque to come in more early due to a large spool/lag time. A camshaft must coexist with the size of the turbo or you will likely be unhappy with your results. A larger cam will help your motor breath in the higher rpms, but you sacrifice a low end torque. Some guys want instant power, some want a linear powerband that pulls hardest close/at peak rpm. Read up!

[ROLLingKING]

I understand the desire for temporary satisfaction, but do it right the first time(i.e. keep the whole picture in mind with every purchase). Don't waste money on parts you'll be getting rid of in 1-5 years(unless you like doing so).

thanks for the input brandon. just to clarify, im not looking for temporary satisfaction really. im def trying to do it one time. But im pretty sure I can add parts to the car now that will increase power and ill be able to keep them when adding the turbo. So thats why im trying to clarify if a cam would matter much with a FI M20. the whole picture im looking at is my car turbo'd by spring/summer. ya know

My advice would be to save your money and only invest in parts that will still turn a profit after you sell them in used condition. A good chip(markD/conforti), 4:10lsd, cam(maybe), & a nice exhaust setup are all you really need. Throw in a nice lightweight flywheel/clutch setup if you're ready to do it. Upgrade your mounts and suspension where it's needed.

Now this part is the only thing i dont agree with. and thats okay.lol im not looking for parts to buy and sell down the road at all really. I want to put em on my car and hopefully theyll work well with other add ons down the road and I wont have to sell em.lol I dont have a lot of money to just build it at once so im doing bit by bit when I can. but thats okay if we disagree. im not trying to "start" anything as ppl tell me i tend to do. I do tho have a direction im already going in. I cant REALLY fully do my exhaust till I get the turbo manifold and turbo mounted with the DP...see where im coming from. I have a 3.73lsd and i like it. it came with the 325is and it works for slidin around. I know about mounts and suspension.lol BUT thanks for adding that any way. im not bashing u for sharing.

maybe i make myself sound clueless when I ask these questions?lol I am a beginner so the "simple" things arent always simple to me. but Im more curious about upgraded cams with turbo set ups. You answered that part very well so thank you for that!! it makes sense that you would have to match the turbo with the cam so i appreciate u pointing that out. i didnt really think about that.


Now as for MS and a NA motor. Im going to need custom tuning for a turbo set u no matter what. MarkD or conforti chip would only be temporary satisfaction till i got the MS. and like I was saying I dont wanna buy 2 chips. Or get WAR chip and regret it. What im thinking is if i get the MAF and bigger throttle body, they wont do anything with the same old computer/stock tune. nothing is being utilized to its full potential without tuning. Thats why I would get MS and already have it/understand more of it by the time I turbo. Yea it would be on a NA but it would be temporary

plus i think i just found an eta block! so i could utilize the MS for that and then have a fun little 2.7L turbo m20 eventually

[nando]

this thread is a bit of a trainwreck - but to say that a cam won't make any difference because it's SOHC is hilariously untrue. but you think changing the TB on a stock motor will make a difference?

On the subject of guys using a "upgraded" cam with turbo setups..... A camshaft is mainly used to change the powerband, not necessarily increase horsepower. With a turbo, most guys want the torque to come in more early due to a large spool/lag time. A camshaft must coexist with the size of the turbo or you will likely be unhappy with your results. A larger cam will help your motor breath in the higher rpms, but you sacrifice a low end torque. Some guys want instant power, some want a linear powerband that pulls hardest close/at peak rpm. Read up!

this is total, absolute nonsense.

a camshaft upgrade is used to increase VE (engine breathing potential). an engine that breathes better NA (higher VE) will also breathe better and make more power when turbo'd. For a given boost level, an engine with an upgraded cam will make a lot more power, likely sooner, than one with a stock cam.

[ROLLingKING]

this thread is a bit of a trainwreck - but to say that a cam won't make any difference because it's SOHC is hilariously untrue. but you think changing the TB on a stock motor will make a difference?



this is total, absolute nonsense.

a camshaft upgrade is used to increase VE (engine breathing potential). an engine that breathes better NA (higher VE) will also breathe better and make more power when turbo'd. For a given boost level, an engine with an upgraded cam will make a lot more power, likely sooner, than one with a stock cam.

niice. and thanks for your input also. but it wont be a stock motor for long.lol a throttle body on a stock motor and ecu wont do anything. i totally agree. and i said i didnt want to invest in cams when im going to turbo it. maybe i iddnt say that but isnt it true cams yield much better results in DOHC motors. like my last car was a dohc 2.8L VR6 jetta. i was sooo close to throwing cams into that car but i traded it for the e30. now im looking at a turbo for my power instead of cams. a cam is not necessary in a 2.7i turbo m20 so im not getting a cam. we can get rid of that topic.

the throttle body seems to be a waste of money for ppl. thats cool. im not sure why tho considering a larger MAF is better for a turbo set up why not a throttle body, and why not put it on rather than have it sit in my room i guess. it will be on a car that wont stay stock!lol i think im gonna get the throttle body as i just found a decent eta block. ill slap that on my 87 325is
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i find it interesting for this reason tho. when i first came on the forum ppl said a NA m20 is dumb, called me dumb, and said it wont yield much results/power. I was asking about upgrading the cam at that time and WAS considering going in the stroker M20 direction. Then my friend who has had turbo cars got me going in the turbo direction. my other friend adam is building a turbo 240sx and in helping him with that ive decided to turbo my car. now that I ask about a cam with the turbo its like im getting completely different info.

maybe its cause the ppl who said NA M20's are dumb and ill be wasting my money are ppl who swapped and are just more bias toward swaps. still weird since i posted it in the m20 section several moths ago.
either way im not getting a cam. NO CAM PPL. lets drop the cam theories. not being rude, just trying to get the thread back on track. now..

Id still like to understand why a bigger throttle body like I posted is a bad idea for a car that will have a turbo slapped on. wouldnt that make a larger MAF just as stupid.lol....i know ppl do it, but im not gonna run a turbo with the stock barn door AFM still there. bigger maf & throttle body, WHY NOT?? theres plenty of turbo builds with stock cams so ill be fine there. but pleeeaase stop saying all these things are not going to do anything on a NA motor please. its not staying NA, think of it as a turbo M20. if it gives me more power cool. if not, thats what the f'in turbo is for.
* and to reiterate, why order the MAF, throttle body, chip or MS, and get a eta block(just found), and then injectors and not put them in! itd be a waste sitting in my room. maybe the car wont have "more power" but itll be different. and I think more torquey. plus, then its less work/shit to install by the time i get the turbo! right.lol