Best Oil to run

[LowR3V'in]

ya great.
then you agree or unless you are saying you do not value your time and want to change it more frequently
and somehow ice cream got brought into this.

[noid]

I don't see hos synthetic is that much more "expensive" when you can go longer between intervals.

Let's say conventional costs you $25 and you have to change after 3k miles. You go 5k miles for synthetic at $40 and you break even after just 15k miles (both costs $125 for 15k miles). BUT, M1 15w50 is just $23 at WalMart, most diesel conventional is about $15, so the cost per mile is an even lesser difference.

Synthetic vs conventional is a bit of a different topic considering you can get synthetic gasoline and synthetic diesel oils. The same applies, synthetic diesel branded oils get to play with much looser regulations.

Given a set budget, answering whether its better to do more conventional oil changes, or less frequent synthetic changes, would fully depend on your value of time, use of oil, and opinion of vanilla vs chocolate.

[ForcedFirebird]

100% Synthetic certainly has advantages and should be chosen if cost isn't a concern. They don't require the addition of many viscosity Index improvers (VII's) which are prone to mechanical shear.

Amsoil is good stuff. Fun fact, their synthetic high zinc oils are rated for gasoline and diesel applications:
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...?code=AROQT-EA

Re: Black is a good thing - oil can darken from oxidation (takes a while), but only turns black from soot. The oil being black means its doing its job. Its a myth that black oil = needs to be changed.

Its a cause and effect relationship, the detergents cleans the soot, so the zddp has a chance to create an effective film. This is particularly important in diesel oils because of the amount of soot. The journal article I posted goes into higher detail; with specific measurements.

At the end of the day, its not really about diesel or gasoline oil, there isn't such a thing. Oil is oil, they are just held to different regulatory limitations. Racing oils, and specialty oils are often able to circumvent these limitations.

Street = run diesel oils
Racing = depends on budget, synthetic racing oils have their advantages

The CK-4 oils with better high shear stability are new since 2017. Do you recall if you tried them or the older CJ-4 standard?

I don't see hos synthetic is that much more "expensive" when you can go longer between intervals.

Let's say conventional costs you $25 and you have to change after 3k miles. You go 5k miles for synthetic at $40 and you break even after just 15k miles (both costs $125 for 15k miles). BUT, M1 15w50 is just $23 at WalMart, most diesel conventional is about $15, so the cost per mile is an even lesser difference.

[noid]

As far as I can tell, it's a pure dyno oil. No way, shape or form is a dyno oil going to maintain viscosity at the temps a full synthetic is. Conventional oils start to break down rapidly at about 240f, they simply don't hold up when we run hours on end with 270-ish oil temps. Again, I agreed that dyno oils are fine for street cars, but not too sure about "black is a good thing" - have you ever tried disassembling an engine that was charcoal colored? For high performance, turbo, or racing applications we are comparing apples to moon rocks.


Just to add, I have personally tried different oils, noting the idle pressure vs temps in FL summer racing conditions. I have found that Amsoil and Liqui Moly are very competitive in results, but I use the LM since it's available with my wholesaler. Redline isn't bad, either, but LM is actually the cheapest for the three. I have tried Rotella, Delvac, M1, Castrol etc. After a few years of racing, I really wish the supplier would purchase barrels of LM, we throw away a lot of 5ltr blue jugs...





Without a doubt! The m20 is actually a good little engine, specially if you keep up the maintenance. I wouldn't go as far to say as the oil is any less important, and TBH, a stock-ish street car isn't going to see much of a difference from a dyno to synthetic aside from the carbon build up on the metals (turning them a black/brown rather than gold) - just it's sound advice to make sure your oil has plenty of ZDDP. The subject has been beaten to death, but it's common knowledge anymore that modern oils are lacking what any flat tappet/solid lifter needs.

100% Synthetic certainly has advantages and should be chosen if cost isn't a concern. They don't require the addition of many viscosity Index improvers (VII's) which are prone to mechanical shear.

Amsoil is good stuff. Fun fact, their synthetic high zinc oils are rated for gasoline and diesel applications:
https://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produ...?code=AROQT-EA

Re: Black is a good thing - oil can darken from oxidation (takes a while), but only turns black from soot. The oil being black means its doing its job. Its a myth that black oil = needs to be changed.

Its a cause and effect relationship, the detergents cleans the soot, so the zddp has a chance to create an effective film. This is particularly important in diesel oils because of the amount of soot. The journal article I posted goes into higher detail; with specific measurements.

At the end of the day, its not really about diesel or gasoline oil, there isn't such a thing. Oil is oil, they are just held to different regulatory limitations. Racing oils, and specialty oils are often able to circumvent these limitations.

Street = run diesel oils
Racing = depends on budget, synthetic racing oils have their advantages

The CK-4 oils with better high shear stability are new since 2017. Do you recall if you tried them or the older CJ-4 standard?

[digger]

The first thing to get correct is the viscosity. A street only m20 doesn't need 10w-60 the oil wont get that hot. It's also not using the oil as a hydraulic fluid like on many vanos engines

I used to use 10w-50 summer and 10w-40 winter but now I just run 10w-40 it actually seems to runs cooler because it's thinner.

[ForcedFirebird]

Try the new CK-4 rated diesel oils like Rotella T4, the new rating requires high shear stability.

The oil being black is actually a good thing. A primary reason for the detergents in diesel oils is to remove carbon, not because its dirty, but because it decreases the effectiveness of the ZDDP and increases wear:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4464459...n_tab_contents

In racing applications, you'll benefit from the higher ratio of primary ZDDP, as it is much more stable at high temperatures. Primary ZDDP is favored in diesel oils, because the expectation is that trucks will run for countless hours at high temperatures. In gasoline engines, they aim for more secondary ZDDP, for cold starts and short trips.

Oils specially designated for racing may use a higher ratio of primary to secondary, but I cant say for sure, as that would be a question for the oil maker.

Before assuming that racing oils will have more primary ZDDP, consider that it depends on what they aim to prove. Secondary ZDDP will show better protection on a graph, but in high temp situations it does not have the thermal stability to provide that protection. Primary ZDDP will provide less protection, but it will be consistent even at high temp's.

As far as I can tell, it's a pure dyno oil. No way, shape or form is a dyno oil going to maintain viscosity at the temps a full synthetic is. Conventional oils start to break down rapidly at about 240f, they simply don't hold up when we run hours on end with 270-ish oil temps. Again, I agreed that dyno oils are fine for street cars, but not too sure about "black is a good thing" - have you ever tried disassembling an engine that was charcoal colored? For high performance, turbo, or racing applications we are comparing apples to moon rocks.


Just to add, I have personally tried different oils, noting the idle pressure vs temps in FL summer racing conditions. I have found that Amsoil and Liqui Moly are very competitive in results, but I use the LM since it's available with my wholesaler. Redline isn't bad, either, but LM is actually the cheapest for the three. I have tried Rotella, Delvac, M1, Castrol etc. After a few years of racing, I really wish the supplier would purchase barrels of LM, we throw away a lot of 5ltr blue jugs...

Keeping your valves adjusted, good coolant, and a decent cap and rotar might just be more important then the oil you run.

Bad combustion taints the oil more then metal-to-metal wear.

Without a doubt! The m20 is actually a good little engine, specially if you keep up the maintenance. I wouldn't go as far to say as the oil is any less important, and TBH, a stock-ish street car isn't going to see much of a difference from a dyno to synthetic aside from the carbon build up on the metals (turning them a black/brown rather than gold) - just it's sound advice to make sure your oil has plenty of ZDDP. The subject has been beaten to death, but it's common knowledge anymore that modern oils are lacking what any flat tappet/solid lifter needs.

[george graves]

I have taken apart hundreds and hundreds of m20's.

This guy knows his shit. But I'll just add this. Keeping your valves adjusted, good coolant, and a decent cap and rotar might just be more important then the oil you run.

Bad combustion taints the oil more then metal-to-metal wear.

[noid]

Try it and see ;) It's still nice a gold color after 24hrs of racing in an e30. It's not overly expensive from a supplier, it's the shipping from Amazon etc that kills it for a consumer. Ask around your local Euro independent shops, I am sure they can get it, even WorldPac carries it.





Conventional oils suck for racing or high temps. They break down so fast with heat and turn black, no doubt. Delvac is also great conventional/diesel (for street cars), has all the right ingredients, great sheer properties etc, but we can't use it in the track cars as we see 270° or more for hours on end - it turns to black and thin as water in less than 2hr.






This. Even if your oil change is $20 more, what's $20 every 5k miles? (Specially when Mr. Hellaflush Lowr3v'in has turbo :p).


Couple videos (212°f for just a few seconds):


Liqui Moly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T6PTZai5s4

VR-1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ417eIkf3Y

Try the new CK-4 rated diesel oils like Rotella T4, the new rating requires high shear stability.

The oil being black is actually a good thing. A primary reason for the detergents in diesel oils is to remove carbon, not because its dirty, but because it decreases the effectiveness of the ZDDP and increases wear:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/4464459...n_tab_contents

In racing applications, you'll benefit from the higher ratio of primary ZDDP, as it is much more stable at high temperatures. Primary ZDDP is favored in diesel oils, because the expectation is that trucks will run for countless hours at high temperatures. In gasoline engines, they aim for more secondary ZDDP, for cold starts and short trips.

Oils specially designated for racing may use a higher ratio of primary to secondary, but I cant say for sure, as that would be a question for the oil maker.

Before assuming that racing oils will have more primary ZDDP, consider that it depends on what they aim to prove. Secondary ZDDP will show better protection on a graph, but in high temp situations it does not have the thermal stability to provide that protection. Primary ZDDP will provide less protection, but it will be consistent even at high temp's.

[LowR3V'in]

i can't tell what those videos show exactly but i think i'll switch to liqui moly
there's a bmw place that stocks it.
better pay alittle extra then blowing because the oil got too thin.
That happened to my m20. spun a bearing because it had vr1 that was acouple months old.
super black.

i put a heat reader on the turbo drain, off the oil pan, after just driving to a friends house it was coming out like 215f, the pan was 150f btw.

[ForcedFirebird]

^ do u like the vr1 stuff?
i have to change my shit every month because it turns black.
the stuff you use is pricey and i only see it on amazon.

Try it and see ;) It's still nice a gold color after 24hrs of racing in an e30. It's not overly expensive from a supplier, it's the shipping from Amazon etc that kills it for a consumer. Ask around your local Euro independent shops, I am sure they can get it, even WorldPac carries it.

Use 15w-40 diesel oil.

Its a matter of regulated limits and taking advantage of the differences between gas and diesel regulations.

Note there are two types of ZDDP, primary and secondary, the former being more thermally stable.

I wrote about it here for those who want to know more:

http://www.rtsauto.com/diesel-oil-vs...n-in-old-cars/

Conventional oils suck for racing or high temps. They break down so fast with heat and turn black, no doubt. Delvac is also great conventional/diesel (for street cars), has all the right ingredients, great sheer properties etc, but we can't use it in the track cars as we see 270° or more for hours on end - it turns to black and thin as water in less than 2hr.

The oil I use is the best oil because of my single anectodal point of data of my engine not exploding.

This. Even if your oil change is $20 more, what's $20 every 5k miles? (Specially when Mr. Hellaflush Lowr3v'in has turbo :p).


Couple videos (212°f for just a few seconds):


Liqui Moly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T6PTZai5s4

VR-1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ417eIkf3Y

[noid]

Use 15w-40 diesel oil.

Its a matter of regulated limits and taking advantage of the differences between gas and diesel regulations.

Note there are two types of ZDDP, primary and secondary, the former being more thermally stable.

I wrote about it here for those who want to know more:

http://www.rtsauto.com/diesel-oil-vs-gasoline-oil-what-oil-to-run-in-old-cars/

[e30davie]

The oil I use is the best oil because of my single anectodal point of data of my engine not exploding.

[LowR3V'in]

^ do u like the vr1 stuff?
i have to change my shit every month because it turns black.
the stuff you use is pricey and i only see it on amazon.

[ForcedFirebird]

High Zinc might be good idea when running M20 having bad reputation to wear out valvetrain due friction. That's why I've used 10w-40 meant for big diesels. But this is just a religion, based on rumours.

i saw that video long ago and dig it... to be honest i have used all kinds of different oils... i have 270k on the clock... still purrs. from what i can tell, everyone uses a different oil in their cars.
i would say the argument is sorta mute.

I have taken apart hundreds and hundreds of m20's. In fact there's at least a dozen here at the shop right now (and just as many e30's lol). I can tell you 100% for sure that the rocker system does in fact wipe lobes, just like my Firebird and Camaro would, just like my neighbor's vintage F250 did (which I repaired). It's not a myth about ZDDP folks. Just browse bobistheoilguy.com ;)

Threads like this will keep popping up until the day we all die.

On every auto-enthusiast forum, not just here.

i wonder if 0w20 walmart oil seems to run great aswell and how long will it seem to run great for.

It works fine. There's 1000-1100ppm ZDDP IIRC, but it's rather thin for the m20 (M1 15w50 has over 1200). We saw ~8psi oil pressure on hot summer days in the endurance car with M1 15w50 at ~290°, which put's it < 20w at that temp. Seeing you would be starting with 20w, couldn't imagine what it would be at full operating temp in an m20 :/


We switched to LiquiMoly RaceTech 10w60 and instantly saw a ~8psi increase in summer racing temps. It's been tested to keep 30w or more at 300°, and based on real world experience, I concur.

[LowR3V'in]

i wonder if 0w20 walmart oil seems to run great aswell and how long will it seem to run great for.