power on a budget

[ctownhawk]

firstly, is it possible to get 200-225hp from a M20? secondly, how would i get close/go about doing that? I would assume making the engine a stroker, with exhaust/chip/headers, and new cams?

if this sounds dumb, it's because i honestly dont know much about engines yet.

[Sean]

to the flyhwheel....yea, it's doable.

Will it be cheap? No. It will cost you a ton. Building up an M20 is not power on a budget - when you do it right it's a frickin fun motor - but in all honesty, you can have just as much fun for less.

Evntually, I'll slap a turbo on my SuperEta stroker, and drive the piss out of it. But for now...I just want a reliable motor. :)

Oh, and you only have one cam in there too...

You'd need a little of everything - tons of headwork - port and polishing, way over-bored, custom pistons, probably an S50 or S52 crank, which involves a bit of block modification. Then you'd need a standalone or piggyback to tune it.

It'll be well over 3-4 grand for a NICELY put together stroker - easily more. The thing is, once you reach about 180 hp, to the crank, it will cost a ton to go beyond that...

That's just what I've seen though.

[AndrewBird]

Jordan was putting down somewhere around 200 crank HP with his 2.8 stroker. I'm sure if you went to a 3.0 and a few other mods you could get it above 200. But like Sean said, it won't be cheap, and by then it won't be to much of a streetable engine.

[Sean]

Jordan was putting down somewhere around 200 crank HP with his 2.8 stroker. I'm sure if you went to a 3.0 and a few other mods you could get it above 200. But like Sean said, it won't be cheap, and by then it won't be to much of a streetable engine.

Yea, forgot to mention that, you'll need pretty high octane gas.

If I were to rebuild a stroker with unlimited funds, I'd buy Metric Mechanic 3200 pistons, matched with an S52 crank. Then I'd source out the ITB's that were made at some point...cause that would just be fucking badass. Hell...it'd be sweet to find that DOHC head that was made at some point too...but I bet there's only like 2 or 3 in the world. lol

[nando]

200 crank really isn't that hard.. but it's not cheap either. I'm going to be dynoing my car next month, I'm hoping for about 210 at the crank (probably 170ish at the 4 wheels). jordans motor was pretty good but there were still some things that could have been improved.. like his pistons and cam choice (regrind, yuck).

I think there is another 20-30hp in my motor, but I won't be doing much to it for a while. I just paid $3.67 a gallon the other day and my mileage isn't so hot.. so I think I'd rather wait until I have another car for a daily driver before I go any further with the M20. :p

[Erick]

^ Hahahaha word. I'm loving my little 250cc bike with 63mpg. Filled up yesterday for $12.50.

Anyhow, let me be the anti-christ here for a moment. Everyone speaks about how to get 200-225 from the motor, etc. All this talk and still all options discussed were for naturally aspirated motors. Now, with a motor with 8.8:1 compression, you gotta talk boost.

And it's not that expensive either, even for a reliable setup. (That's only making 200-225hp). A nice little setup at 7psi, still using the stock motronic ECU, and a TCD chip could yield you 250 crank hp. You would obviously need to use 93 octane and stuff like that, but the motor is a champ and takes boost well.

The problem with boost is that it is highly addicting and you'll quickly find yourself wanting more... and if you want to make 250 wheel horsepower, then you gotta start doing some more serious work to ensure that the motor stays reliable. But if you could live with 250 crank hp, then a whole setup would run you just about $1500, give or take a few hundred depending on your connections and dexterity with stuff like welding.

Here's a list of what you would need:
524td manifold with a sealed EGR valve
A small little T3 turbo (they go for cheap as people upgrade to bigger ones) with an internal wastegate.
Downpipe (custom welded)
TCD chip
19lb, maybe 24lb injectors (although I have seen an e30 at 4psi ride fine on stock injectors).
Colder spark plugs. ($10)
Boost gauge ($30)

The rest would be basically just upgrades as you go along, such as an intercooler, more gauges, some better tuning or something.

There is a saying that's always being thrown around that is "Cheap, Power, Reliable. Pick two." And it's mostly true. If you want something cheap and reliable, dont expect too much power out of it.

[digger]

200 crank really isn't that hard.. but it's not cheap either. I'm going to be dynoing my car next month, I'm hoping for about 210 at the crank (probably 170ish at the 4 wheels). jordans motor was pretty good but there were still some things that could have been improved.. like his pistons and cam choice (regrind, yuck).

I think there is another 20-30hp in my motor, but I won't be doing much to it for a while. I just paid $3.67 a gallon the other day and my mileage isn't so hot.. so I think I'd rather wait until I have another car for a daily driver before I go any further with the M20. :p

regrind? i thought it was a custom made shrick? and there is nothing wrong with his JE pistons. The motor was more of a torquey one than an all out power one.

[nando]

it was from reacetep.com... they don't call it a regrind, but that's what it is. I bought the same cam (and got rid of it).

he had 85mm pistons that run hotter and require more wall clearance (meaning more blowby and oil burning).. he had to seriously retard his timing to get it to run right. I'm wasn't impressed :p

[winstontj]

200hp @ flywheel = easy

200 crank really isn't that hard.. but it's not cheap either. I'm going to be dynoing my car next month, I'm hoping for about 210 at the crank (probably 170ish at the 4 wheels). jordans motor was pretty good but there were still some things that could have been improved.. like his pistons and cam choice (regrind, yuck).

I think there is another 20-30hp in my motor, but I won't be doing much to it for a while. I just paid $3.67 a gallon the other day and my mileage isn't so hot.. so I think I'd rather wait until I have another car for a daily driver before I go any further with the M20. :p

I just did a dyno run yesterday on my car and ran 168whp/162tq @ 5650rpm. I have a dyno sheet from a few years ago putting 178 to the wheels and my car is in a bad state of tune. I know that with proper tune I can get that next 10hp out of the car. 178whp is ~200@ the crank. I haven't opened up my motor so I have no idea what's inside or what the PO did but I've got a BavAuto chip, e36 adapted Ansa exhaust, Split Second piggyback, 24# injectors, adj RR FPR, cam (unknown), and possibly more. I also have a 4:10 40% LSD which doesn't make a difference at the dyno but it's fun to drive with.

Any budget power means TURBO. If you want NA power you have to spend the money. Stroker means MONEY. Crank, rods, pistons, TONS of head work, porting, combustion chamber work, bigger valves, cam, header, intake work either extrude hone or run an ITB setup, high octane fuel only from now on, oiling, machine shop costs to bore.....

regardless you're not getting into the most expensive thing in the world but you aren't getting into an M10 either. NA power is the best way to go IMO and you can get 250 to the wheels if you really go at it.... but that's going to be a no expense spared, money is no object motor.

Why do you want to get 200hp? Is anything wrong with your current motor?

[digger]

it was from reacetep.com... they don't call it a regrind, but that's what it is. I bought the same cam (and got rid of it).

he had 85mm pistons that run hotter and require more wall clearance (meaning more blowby and oil burning).. he had to seriously retard his timing to get it to run right. I'm wasn't impressed :p

from the results it seems to be a decent cam (torquey atleast) and works fine for a eta crank engine can't be sure a 284/272 wouldn't have been better though. It has good lift and streetable duration and uses the standard eccentrics so i wouldn't call it a regrind. I can see your quoting from MM on other brands of pistons " runs hotter, more clearance etc"

[dgmorr]

Why is everyone so against a regrind?

I just bought an IE reground 272 and installed it. Suprisingly it didn't need oversized eccentrics. Do I lose the lift of a true Schrick 272?

I'm hoping to turbo this thing soo, but still looking for a decent priced manifold.

[nando]

from the results it seems to be a decent cam (torquey atleast) and works fine for a eta crank engine can't be sure a 284/272 wouldn't have been better though. It has good lift and streetable duration and uses the standard eccentrics so i wouldn't call it a regrind. I can see your quoting from MM on other brands of pistons " runs hotter, more clearance etc"

the cam I got (from the same place, sold as a "new billet") needed oversized eccentrics.. so unless I got ripped off, they are regrinds.

as far as the MM quote, well, it's true! Jordan wasn't the only one with severe detonation issues (before he redid his head and retuned it). Dave Length could barely run his with a stock chip, and there's another guy on here that claims 10:1 compression is impossible on the M20 without race fuel, but he's using generic forged pistons (and an 85mm bore).

personally I kinda wish I'd gone with the 11:1 rally pistons instead..

[nefarious7907]

^^ The stock euro eta pistons are 10.2:1 and 11.0:1..........

[ptownTSI]

gotta go boost man. don't look back from there.

only other way to go is with high compression (say 11.5:1) and a big cam. you live in TX so gas is cheaper and you should be able to get 94 at the pump, or at least 93?

[ctownhawk]

nothing is really wrong with the power the m20 puts out. the idea of getting 200+ was just something i was throwing out there at the time. i have a more solid plan for my car, and engine mods are on the lower end of it. however, i will consider a turbo later on if i decide that i "want" more power.

thanks for the replies