V8 swap thread

[Doughnut]

BTW
This thread is fucking retarded.

+1.
I'm over it.

[e30trooper]

I know there are 1000hp BMWs. I'm yet to see a 1000hp M20 that isn't a complete grenade engine, but we'll let that pass for a sec... I'll highlight the bit I took issue with in your previous post:




It is not "quite easy" to get 1000 reliable horsepower out of a BMW engine compared to an LSx engine. If you want 1000hp out of GM or BMW engines it is going to take a properly built bottom-end, thoroughly reworked head, huge fuel system (particularly on E85), all new exhaust plumbing and more. I've actually had a fair bit to do with "serious" horsepower builds down here and I can tell you that no engine will cop four-figure power levels without serious stress and a host of new parts - the LS will need less parts than a BMW engine of your choice.

I know there are far more genuine 1000hp LSx engines around than BMW engines, and quite a few are pushing over 1500 now (reliably). You aren't going to beat a well-prepped LSx with any of those BMW engines you've listed, unless it is running huge amounts of nitrous, race fuel (or methanol) and you don't care about longevity.

Its an academic debate though, because dyno comps are a massive wank and unless you've got a chassis set up for drag racing (incl. slicks) you will not be able to put the power down. Good for you if ruling the roost at dyno comps gets you wet, though.

2.4L that maxed out a 1000hp dyno :D No need for a v8

[e30trooper]

My eta gets better mpg!!

[e30e]

5.9l 6bt



there are 2 options.

i'm working off of real world date first hand, not crap I dig up on-line.
BMW V8's make great power, and BMW did a wonderful job of nursing every ounce of power out of it. While the pushrod V8's (like my wifes corvette LS1) have a ton of untapped power available.

So in order to compare gas-gas let run this comparison.

1998 convertible vette automatic 24.3 mpg
2004 M62 4.4l X5 17 mpg
same driver

I love BMW's but they aren't the best thing since sliced bread.

Are you seriously comparing an x5 to corvette in fuel economy, the x5 weighs twice as much as the corvette and the corvette has a true over drive gear.


BTW
This thread is fucking retarded.

[Jonsku]

So in order to compare gas-gas let run this comparison.

1998 convertible vette automatic 24.3 mpg
2004 M62 4.4l X5 17 mpg
same driver

Well well, BMW states that X5 consumption is 10,2 L /100km (23mpg) and Chevrolet states 14,7 L / 100km (16mpg) for corvette. Both official figures, measured using same standards, combined cycle.

So, either you're driving in very different conditions or you've mixed the consumption-datas..

[weaksauce]

Well well smartass, you could start by telling me which engine is in your truck and then i can tell you more about how bad it is.

5.9l 6bt

Well well smartass, you could start by telling me which engine is in your truck and then i can tell you more about how bad it is.

Yea, that just proves you can't think and read at the same time.

Did it occur to you that there might be different cummins engines, as there're different BMW engines .. ?

there are 2 options.

Oh well, are you seriously comparing diesel and gasoline engines? Sorry but you need to take your head out of your ass and face the facts.

Here's a comparison i made of the engines. Please read it couple of times before posting..

(Both cars are yearmodel 2009, datas taken from manufacturers' websites);

Diesels:
-BMW X5 35dA, 3 litres, 286hp / 580Nm, consumption (combined) 8,3 l/100km (28mpg)
-Dodge ram 2500 with Cummins B6.7, 6,7 litres, 350hp / 880Nm, consumption (combined) 22mpg = 10,7 l/100km

BMW makes 95,3 hp / litre whereas dodge makes 52,2 hp / litre. Brake specific fuel consumption is 0,049 g / kWh for BMW and 0,06 g / kWh for Dodge, which is over 20% bigger than in BMW.


Gasoline:
-BMW X5 4.8iS, 4,8 litres, 355hp, combined consumption 12,1 l/100km (19,4mpg)
-Dodge ram with 5.7 hemi, 5,7 litres, 383hp, combined consumption 17,5mpg = 13,4 l/100km

BMW makes 74hp / l, dodge 67,2hp/l. BSFC for BMW is 0,051 whereas it's 0,06 for hemi engine (17,6% bigger).

i'm working off of real world date first hand, not crap I dig up on-line.
BMW V8's make great power, and BMW did a wonderful job of nursing every ounce of power out of it. While the pushrod V8's (like my wifes corvette LS1) have a ton of untapped power available.

So in order to compare gas-gas let run this comparison.

1998 convertible vette automatic 24.3 mpg
2004 M62 4.4l X5 17 mpg
same driver

I love BMW's but they aren't the best thing since sliced bread.

[Jonsku]

It is not "quite easy" to get 1000 reliable horsepower out of a BMW engine compared to an LSx engine. If you want 1000hp out of GM or BMW engines it is going to take a properly built bottom-end, thoroughly reworked head, huge fuel system (particularly on E85), all new exhaust plumbing and more.

Yes of course you need to upgrade your whole car when aiming at such figures. Building a fuel system is easy, no big deal. There're many M10 based engines doing ~1000hp peak, and even 1.5 litre M10 based engine did ~1500hp constantly in time runs on F1's 20 years ago.
What i'm trying to say, is that 1000hp isn't such a magical figure which can't be achieved "easily". Just bolt on correct parts and that's it. Of course it'll cost a lot but that wasn't the question..


My main point with the engines is, that physically there's so much more space in the engine room when using inline 6cyl engines than V-engines that your build will be much more simpler. And when retaining near stock engine room / chassis M50-variant turbo is the best choice. It's much more easier to change the pistons and connecting rods to an engine than it is to make good turbo manifolds to V-engine in 3-series BMW..

Sensible superchargers won't fit with v-engines.. (the small ones will but they're next to nothing).

Its an academic debate though, because dyno comps are a massive wank and unless you've got a chassis set up for drag racing (incl. slicks) you will not be able to put the power down. Good for you if ruling the roost at dyno comps gets you wet, though.

Yes, but when your engine is good for 1000hp peak hp, you can run it "for ever" with 750hp..

[Iain]

Well well, even though you can't even type sarcastically without being a complete idiot, i just want to point out that there're plenty of turboed S38, S50, M50 and even M20 engines producing power in the 1000hp range. Just put "1000hp turbo BMW" in youtube, or make a quick search in PPF.

I know there are 1000hp BMWs. I'm yet to see a 1000hp M20 that isn't a complete grenade engine, but we'll let that pass for a sec... I'll highlight the bit I took issue with in your previous post:

I'd like to point out here that turboing or supercharging straight 6 engine is much more easier than with those V-engines, 1000hp can be quite easily gained which should be more than enough to all other than drag-racing cars..

It is not "quite easy" to get 1000 reliable horsepower out of a BMW engine compared to an LSx engine. If you want 1000hp out of GM or BMW engines it is going to take a properly built bottom-end, thoroughly reworked head, huge fuel system (particularly on E85), all new exhaust plumbing and more. I've actually had a fair bit to do with "serious" horsepower builds down here and I can tell you that no engine will cop four-figure power levels without serious stress and a host of new parts - the LS will need less parts than a BMW engine of your choice.

I know there are far more genuine 1000hp LSx engines around than BMW engines, and quite a few are pushing over 1500 now (reliably). You aren't going to beat a well-prepped LSx with any of those BMW engines you've listed, unless it is running huge amounts of nitrous, race fuel (or methanol) and you don't care about longevity.

Its an academic debate though, because dyno comps are a massive wank and unless you've got a chassis set up for drag racing (incl. slicks) you will not be able to put the power down. Good for you if ruling the roost at dyno comps gets you wet, though.

[Jonsku]

You can't be serious.

At what height did you mother drop you on your head when you were a baby?

Well well, even though you can't even type sarcastically without being a complete idiot, i just want to point out that there're plenty of turboed S38, S50, M50 and even M20 engines producing power in the 1000hp range. Just put "1000hp turbo BMW" in youtube, or make a quick search in PPF.

970hp M5
1129hp S50
Project thread of the 1091hp M20
M50 turbo touring / 1000hp
~750 Whp M30 with only 1,6bar boost (going to be 2,5-3bar)

And the list just goes on and on... just for an example an M50 turbo with normal pump gas and ~700hp (no e85 yet, which is available in sweden / norway everywhere).

[LowR3V'in]

I'd do a nice 400hp bolt on ls1 and still get 20mpg
Then run a 300 shot of nitrous for those quick 220mph freeway
getaway runs.

:)

[Doughnut]

You can't be serious.

At what height did you mother drop you on your head when you were a baby?

This is inappropriate.

[Iain]

I'd like to point out here that turboing or supercharging straight 6 engine is much more easier than with those V-engines, 1000hp can be quite easily gained which should be more than enough to all other than drag-racing cars..

You can't be serious.

At what height did you mother drop you on your head when you were a baby?

[Jonsku]

Well, then I'm glad to hear you fall mostly under the former category.

Be that as it may, I still don't think specific hp has a place in picking a swap, and neither does comparing BSFC curves (hey everyone check it out, my car makes less power, but uses less gas per hp!) and other general elitist waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswafflesry.

Honestly, there's a time and place to get into the volumetric and adiabatic (hey username!) efficiency of an engine versus another, but the general point you're not getting is, and let me restate it, only mech-e's and entitled pricks care about such things in context of a thread about power vs. weight gain on a swap, and neither are correct in doing so.

Whether or not the BMW straight-6's have more specific hp output, the LS1 still has more ACTUAL output, with comparable weight and a layout better suited for center-oriented weight distribution anyways. It also can be FI'd if needed, as you seem to forget when talking about turbo applications of the BMW engines.

Basically, the only two reasons I can see you going this route are:

A: Not getting the overall picture
B: Getting the overall picture but trying to find bullshit reasons (although pretty sounding) to support your rampant favoritism.

All this coming from someone who's also a MechE/EE, with 2 years in the automotive engineering field, and becoming vastly tired of an N/A engine that flows 305cfm near redline, 120hp/L, and has a volumetric efficiency rivaling some early FI engines. All those impressive numbers with a pitiful 240 crank hp and 150 ft*lbs, that gets absolutely shit upon by my buddy's pushrod, leaf-springed C5 Corvette.

That's a good post, and lots of good pointers in it.

One of the main reasons i answer to these threads is that i just don't understand why people say those american V8's are "best engines ever made". But let's end the discussion about that here, because this topic would go to endless bullshit (if it hasn't gone already)..

Anyways, you pointed out that "Whether or not the BMW straight-6's have more specific hp output, the LS1 still has more ACTUAL output, with comparable weight and a layout better suited for center-oriented weight distribution anyways. It also can be FI'd if needed, as you seem to forget when talking about turbo applications of the BMW engines."

I'd like to point out here that turboing or supercharging straight 6 engine is much more easier than with those V-engines, 1000hp can be quite easily gained which should be more than enough to all other than drag-racing cars..


All in all, the debate which engine is better than another is endless. Virtually every car-engine ever made can be swapped also to E30 chassis, after all it's only question of time and money.

[Adiabatic]

I don't know about that, it's still informative to a degree.

[416stroker]

This thread need to be locked so this ends.