Mounting the engine without subframe spacers, and without tilt.

[Mr Two]

Seems like the best solution is having some place modify the oil pan. Just make sure they know what they are doing - proper steps need to be taken to make sure the pan doesn't warp, ect. It looks like it's a relatively simple change compared to modifying an LS1 oil pan.

[JGood]

I'd rather have a slightly out of alignment drivetrain than I would the screwed up suspension geometry you get with subframe spacers. If you must run them, then figure out a way to raise the control arm mounts back to the proper position (or higher).

I tend to agree, to a point. I put my m50 in my e30 about 3 years / 40k miles ago. For some reason, which nobody can figure out, the engine is angled sideways, the driveshaft has a good 10 degree angle in it from left to right.

Since swapping the engine, I had to replace the CSB once (just about 2 months ago it finally failed). Now, I beat the living shit out of the drivetrain for the past 3 years. I really wouldn't expect a 100% straight drive shaft to last any longer under those conditions.

That said, I know it is wearing the u-joints more the usual, and it will probably keep getting worse and cause increased wear of the CSB. And since the u-joints aren't easily replaceable without machine work on these shafts, that can get expensive to correct.

I know the OP was trying to get this back on topic, just thought some experience with messed up BMW driveshaft angle would be useful here :)

[nrubenstein]

This has been debated to some length, several times with no clear results... I understand the geometry differences and on a track car, they would be of greater concern than a street car. There are several street car swaps done that have used the spacers and no one has stated any kind of crazy changes in bump steer. In all honesty, I'd rather make the necessary changes to the front sub frame mounting height and have a non-screwed up drive train angle for a street car. Considering the entire drive train is fixed on these cars, excessive wear on the drive shaft and joints/supports is a big enough concern to me to find a solution, even if it means a compromise in bump steer geometry. Since I'm running an E36 rack, I have the spacers on the bottom, thereby gaining back 12mm of the 20mm thickness of the spacer. That's a net of an 8mm lower rack mounting height than stock and an aligned drive train... I'd say that's a win-win for a street car. I'd search out a different solution for a track car though.

I wonder how come this argument never pops up in the car lowering threads, since lowering the car has effectively the same negative affect on bump steer. Nobody ever says that you'll get screwed up geometry when you lower you car and do nothing to compensate for it. And most guys are dropping their cars way more than the 20mm thickness of the sub frame spacers...

Garey

It's a compounding effect. And lowering for the sake of lowering IS bad. It's not bump steer that's the real issue, it's the roll center. A better question would be to ask people with an E30 M3 suspension just how much they notice a 20mm roll center spacer.

[bmwmech1]

It's a compounding effect. And lowering for the sake of lowering IS bad. It's not bump steer that's the real issue, it's the roll center. A better question would be to ask people with an E30 M3 suspension just how much they notice a 20mm roll center spacer.

Agreed that the roll center becomes the bigger issue, but a 20mm roll center spacer out at the end of the wishbone/lever doesn't have the same effect as the 20mm sub frame spacer we're talking about here. 20mm at the end of the lever is a far larger change in geometry than moving the fulcrum point of that lever down 20mm. Again, we're talking about a street car vs. a very well tuned track car. Roll center becomes a much smaller issue when negotiating an on ramp on a freeway vs. an off camber sweeper at Mid Ohio... I think the ultimate solution is to modify the pan and leave out the spacers, so I'll leave it at that and not beat the dead horse... Back on topic...

Garey

[nrubenstein]

Agreed that the roll center becomes the bigger issue, but a 20mm roll center spacer out at the end of the wishbone/lever doesn't have the same effect as the 20mm sub frame spacer we're talking about here. 20mm at the end of the lever is a far larger change in geometry than moving the fulcrum point of that lever down 20mm. Again, we're talking about a street car vs. a very well tuned track car. Roll center becomes a much smaller issue when negotiating an on ramp on a freeway vs. an off camber sweeper at Mid Ohio... I think the ultimate solution is to modify the pan and leave out the spacers, so I'll leave it at that and not beat the dead horse... Back on topic...

Garey

I'm curious, what is the difference between moving the outside down or the inside up. I'll admit that I'm no engineer, but that makes no sense to me. Moving the inside up should have exactly the same impact.

[Jean]

Good topic, to me I don't want to have a kink in the drive line as to make it as reliable as possible through a race season. I hope that that 15-20mm drop in the whole front subframe can be 'fixed' with adjusting the rack and/or suspension points as needed if it really is a big issue. Mine isn't really a street car, so handing is key, so carry on :)

[bmwmech1]

Good topic, to me I don't want to have a kink in the drive line as to make it as reliable as possible through a race season. I hope that that 15-20mm drop in the whole front subframe can be 'fixed' with adjusting the rack and/or suspension points as needed if it really is a big issue. Mine isn't really a street car, so handing is key, so carry on :)

Kind of my thought process, as well...

Garey

[The Dark Side of Will]

Not more bumpsteer talk...

What's the ACTUAL driveline angle with either of these methods?

U-joints NEED to act across a small angle in order to have long service lives.
If the driveline is perfectly straight, then the needles in the U-joint will brinel the races and the joint will wear out quickly.

[The Dark Side of Will]

Exactly!

Another revelation I had is that the 2003-2005 range rovers have a m62 with a slightly different oil pans (these oil pans should be able to bolt to all m60/m62's) and it makes me wonder what the clearance is like in the same spot for their oil pans.

Here is the BMW one:


and here is the land rover one:


They look very similar but do look to have some differences. I wish i could find pictures of the underside of the pan to investigate. Anyone have a 03-05 rover (upper pan) they could measure/take pictures of?

Very Interesting! Where did you get that diagram of the LR pan?
I'm trying to find a lower pan for my AWD S62 swap and so far the only one I called about turned out to look exactly like what you show there... which is different than the regular X5 4.4i pans.

[The Dark Side of Will]

FYI from my iX 32V swap thread on e30tech:

A few weeks ago I was looking for a lower oil pan to go with my upper.

I called up a junk yard that listed one. I was about to say go when I asked if it had the oil level sensor. He said "what oil level sensor?". He said his part didn't even have a location for the oil level sensor. I told him to hold off and he offered to send me a pic. This is what came:



This is my pan:



And this is the lower I was expecting:




Didn't make sense to me either, until I read this thread and saw this picture:

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=227680

And I recognized the shape of the lower pan.
So he has a land rover pan...

Blows my mind that two applications so similar would use such different oil pans.

[Pinepig]

Good topic, to me I don't want to have a kink in the drive line as to make it as reliable as possible through a race season. I hope that that 15-20mm drop in the whole front subframe can be 'fixed' with adjusting the rack and/or suspension points as needed if it really is a big issue. Mine isn't really a street car, so handing is key, so carry on :)

I'd rather modify the oil pan than put spacers in between the subframe and body, you know I've got that TIG sitting in the corner. I'm just saying.

[noid]

Very Interesting! Where did you get that diagram of the LR pan?
I'm trying to find a lower pan for my AWD S62 swap and so far the only one I called about turned out to look exactly like what you show there... which is different than the regular X5 4.4i pans.

I found the diagram on ebay in a forsale listing. Nothing from bmw seems to use the X5 lower pan except for the X5 (part number 11137500210).

[The Dark Side of Will]

HAS ANYONE ACTUALLY MEASURED THE DRIVELINE ANGLE?

If so, where can I read the results?

As long as the transmission output shaft and differential pinion are PARALLEL, that is ALL THAT IS NECESSARY.

Having the transmission and pinion exactly aligned is NOT desirable as it will lead to shortened U-joint life.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I tend to agree, to a point. I put my m50 in my e30 about 3 years / 40k miles ago. For some reason, which nobody can figure out, the engine is angled sideways, the driveshaft has a good 10 degree angle in it from left to right.

Ten degress is a LOT of angle... have measurements to back this up?
I would be extremely surprised if there is enough room in the transmission tunnel to turn the driveline far enough to misalign it that badly.
Did you build your own mount brackets? has your chassis been wrecked? Did you install the M50 at the M20 lean angle?

[Jonsku]

I just fabricated engine & transmission mounts for E30 V8 M60 with ZF5HP30 gearbox. No subframe spacers needed. The engine/transmission is tilted backwards slightly, maybe by ~1inch in the total lenght, which in my opinion is not much (~1cm in the engine length). The hood closes no problem etc.

In my cabrio I've 20mm subframe spacers (to accommodate E34 coolant reservoir + strutbar) but this project under work now will utilize alternative solutions.


My friend did his E30 V8 swap also couple of years ago without subframe spacers, so it's totally doable. Only negative effect is that you won't be able to utilize the aforementioned coolant reservoir and/or front strutbar.


Many ways to do it :)