E30 M3 S62 Build - Loads of queries about 4x4 drivtrains

[M3 euro ltw]

Solenoids, scavenging

A: Keep two stage pump with active solenoids scavenging from one of 3 locations..left head, right head, rear of engine, add Mk 20 ABS to your car, preserve solenoid function, re-design pump pickups, location, and scavenging plumbing to somehow use X5 pan....or some homebrew accelerometer program
B: Collect Data, and if there is a problem, add a cheap accusump

I admire BMW tremendously for their ingenuity and problem solving. They have made some tremendous advances in bringing high-tech engineering down to consumer projects.

In the case of the S62 scavenging system, there are several considerations to take into account. First off, it is designed under side load to scavenge from the dependent cylinderhead.

Consider that if the car you're building will have stiffer springs and suspension than a stock E39 M5 you may never load the car up enough to allow oil collection in the head in the first place. IE, the relative softness of a stock car might have meant that they HAD to do something. Consider that people beat and beat on other BMW V8 cars with very similar architecture without ever getting into trouble. It MAY not be that important to you for YOUR project.

Consider also, that you may be able to add in some baffles to keep oil from collecting at the back of the engine requiring scavenging selectively when accelerating forward. Heck of a lot cheaper and easier than A or B

I have bought an S62 for my race car, and non of my plans to make it work include preservation of the factory oil scavenging, and yet, I'm not really concerned that even this expensive kit will show issues with dropped oil pressure. If so, it will get an Accusump for sure. Too easy a solution.

Adding Mk 20 ABS would be REALLY easy, and many, many people are doing this already as it will really enhance your braking, and heck, YOU'LL NEED IT.

[nando]

you need the WDS for the E39. there's no "ETM", but it's basically the same thing:
wds.spaghetticoder.org

[The Dark Side of Will]

Thanks for the info on how the system works. I hadn't thought it would be that distributed.

I'm going to give adapting the active sump to the E53 pan a shot. As far as hardware goes, it's just machine work and fab, which really isn't anything new.

The electronics could be very interesting, however. I have a lot of research to do in the E39 M5 ETM (If I can find one) regarding how the DSC is hooked up. I just need to hook up enough that the DSC will communicate chassis loading to the DME... not enough to get the DSC to actually work. If the necessary signals are just wheel speed sensors, that can be done. If it includes a chassis accelerometer, that can be mounted somewhere in the E30 body.

Of course that may be a naive viewpoint. The DSC may want to talk to the bus master (body computer?) and get the thumbs up signal before it even finishes booting.

In the last ditch effort, since the active sump electrically is just a pair of solenoids, a G-sensitive switch could be built to operate it outside of computer control. Maybe an Ardruino microcontroller could be used to operate the valves... There are lot of possibilities.

[Turk]

Don't worry mate. Your comments are very much appreciated. Why would valid info offend us in anyway?! At the end of the we are playing around with complex kit and some very expensive mistakes could be on the horizon. So every spec of info is welcome!!

Do you any links to accusumps and their figment cost etc?

Cheers
Turk

[M3 euro ltw]

I didn't realize that the connection from the oil pump to the VANOS was low pressure.

It is low pressure in the sense that its merely sending oil to the vanos unit for its pump to supply a dedicated and closed circuit.

The main oil pump does not feed the vanos solenoids directly. It does have a secondary section with it's own separate smaller diameter tube to the front of the engine to lubricate the chains in some fashion. [I don't believe that is the source of oil to the vanos unit however. I think the oil comes in from the cylinderheads via the back of the vanos unit, one of the O rings on the back protects that connection.]

The S62 already has an accumulator to assure a constant supply of oil to the VANOS.

The accumulator that you point out is isolated and only storing oil under high pressure from the dedicated vanos pumps in each cylinderhead. When I mention adding an accusump, it is to make up for the lack of oil pressure not to the vanos (which is a closed circuit after its dedicated pump and accumulator), rather for the rods/bearings.

The accumulator you mention will do nothing to preserve the bearings in the rods or crank from starvation that the solenoids and dual stage S62 pump is designed to prevent.

(by the way, I'm not picking a fight with you... you guys are charting new territory here, I'm really sincerely only trying to help, and in this case, perhaps help keep on track..... I'm working separately on a somewhat related project, so the research I did bears on this subject as well.... so, hopefully, you won't feel defensive on this)

I'm certain to have questions very soon about this (not the AWD aspect), so I don't want to alienate anyone!

[The Dark Side of Will]

I didn't realize that the connection from the oil pump to the VANOS was low pressure.

The S62 already has an accumulator to assure a constant supply of oil to the VANOS.

[M3 euro ltw]

Vanos pump...

You guys are operating under a false assumption.

The vanos system on S62 operates under VERY high pressure, and the pump is integrated into each vanos unit up on each head.

It is essentially chain driven alone with the cam, see photo here:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/196949-diy-cleaning-vanos.html

The oil pumps for these engines also have an unfiltered output to the front of the engine for the chains. That is the thin tube you show.

I have some experience with S50B3X vanos, there, like S54, S62 vanos pump is in vanos unit.

If you plan on running the S62, that M5 forum is full of excellent tech information. It is NOT a kids forum, and a far more mature place to read and learn about the cars.

From a practical standpoint, I do not think you will be able to duplicate proper directed scavenging from heads vs rear of sump the way the S62 pan does it. The least of the issues are abs sensor information. Putting E46 MK 20 ABS onto your car would be child's play compared to trying to retain the S62 dual stage pump and internal pan scavenging system WITH the X5 AWD spacial pan limitations.

But, if you do some relatively cheap data farming on oil pressure, and did in fact find that there were issues, adding an accusump would be a quick way to fix the situation I think.

[Turk]

This is what I've had from my guy in Germany.

"OK, concerning the oil pump:
The only difference I know between M62 and S62 oilpump is that the S62 oilpump has the 2 connections for the electric pumps...

The pressure and amout of oil being pumped should be the same... Also I know of some swappers which are using the M62 oilpump and oilpan... so I do not see a problem...
What I would always recommend is installing an oilpressure gauge... so you can see if there are some problems....

The vanos makes no problem as this has its own oilpump in the vanos-unit and the oilpump just supplies the oil and the amount of oil needed is not really much... there is just a piston that is moved and this will be done by the vanos-oilpump (highpressure!)..."

[The Dark Side of Will]

AIUI, the VANOS and standard oil supplies come from different pump stages. The VANOS oil has to be at 1450 psi while the lubrication oil is <100 psi. I'm not sure if the lubrication pump stage feeds the VANOS pump stage or if they both pull straight from the sump, but my understanding was that there are two different pump mechanisms in a common housing, so the volume demands need to be considered separately.

[Turk]

I do kind of agree with you. I think if the general oil pressure within the engine is similar, the pressure will consequently feed the vanos at similar rates. The Vanos feed tube is the small one if I'm not mistaken? These are the same diameter on both s62 and m62.

This is really making me think I can tell u!

[Jonsku]

Any how many teeth is that?

Count from E30 tooth ring, I don't have one at hand at the moment but i recall it was something like 48 or 49 if I'm not totally mislead .. ? :)

Also, does the M62 have piston oil squirters like the S62? That's a big requirement for oil volume.

Oh yes it does.

Regarding VANOS, do you think it's a large consumer after all? Sure, it does require "some" oil volume/pressure, but when comparing to the whole lubrication demand it might not be so big after all..?

[The Dark Side of Will]

you've copied same link twice. No worries I have found what you mean.

Yes I certainly think it will will need all of the pictured piping to work, but looking at the diameters of the pipes I would say theres a good chance of pressures etc being correct!

Fixed... you get it.

E30 and E36 have same number of teeth on the ABS-rings ;)

Regarding the oil-volume/pressure, I wouldn't bee too concerned as the pumps are anyway overdimensioned and at least to my understanding VANOS does not require large amounts of oil (there could be some indication on this on the technical documents by BMW). Though I do agree that S62 is quite a expensive engine to test this kind of things...

Any how many teeth is that?
I checked RealOEM briefly and didn't find that it had any info on E39 ABS reluctors.

Dual VANOS will need twice as much oil as single VANOS. I'm not sure if the S62 would operate at a higher pressure than the M62 for "faster response" of the VANOS actuators or not. Not sure if the M62 has it, but the S62 has an accumulator for the high pressure VANOS oil.

Also, does the M62 have piston oil squirters like the S62? That's a big requirement for oil volume.

[Jonsku]

How many teeth are on the E30 vs. E39 ABS rings?

Since I'm going to end up doing a 5 lug conversion *anyway*...

E30 and E36 have same number of teeth on the ABS-rings ;)


Regarding the oil-volume/pressure, I wouldn't bee too concerned as the pumps are anyway overdimensioned and at least to my understanding VANOS does not require large amounts of oil (there could be some indication on this on the technical documents by BMW). Though I do agree that S62 is quite a expensive engine to test this kind of things...

[Turk]

you've copied same link twice. No worries I have found what you mean.

Yes I certainly think it will will need all of the pictured piping to work, but looking at the diameters of the pipes I would say theres a good chance of pressures etc being correct!

[The Dark Side of Will]

Hmm... it doesn't show internal parts for the oil pump. Bummer. The S62 is an expensive engine for a "try it and see" course of action.

E39 S62

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DE93&mospid=47592&btnr=11_2663&hg=11&fg=30

E53 M62

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=FB93&mospid=47748&btnr=11_2820&hg=11&fg=30

It does depict a dogleg in the M62 VANOS oil supply line, so you may need that part... the "oil pipes" that supply the rest of the engine's oil needs are also different part numbers.