E30 M3 S62 Build - Loads of queries about 4x4 drivtrains

[Jonsku]

Any how many teeth is that?

Count from E30 tooth ring, I don't have one at hand at the moment but i recall it was something like 48 or 49 if I'm not totally mislead .. ? :)

Also, does the M62 have piston oil squirters like the S62? That's a big requirement for oil volume.

Oh yes it does.

Regarding VANOS, do you think it's a large consumer after all? Sure, it does require "some" oil volume/pressure, but when comparing to the whole lubrication demand it might not be so big after all..?

[Turk]

I do kind of agree with you. I think if the general oil pressure within the engine is similar, the pressure will consequently feed the vanos at similar rates. The Vanos feed tube is the small one if I'm not mistaken? These are the same diameter on both s62 and m62.

This is really making me think I can tell u!

[The Dark Side of Will]

AIUI, the VANOS and standard oil supplies come from different pump stages. The VANOS oil has to be at 1450 psi while the lubrication oil is <100 psi. I'm not sure if the lubrication pump stage feeds the VANOS pump stage or if they both pull straight from the sump, but my understanding was that there are two different pump mechanisms in a common housing, so the volume demands need to be considered separately.

[Turk]

This is what I've had from my guy in Germany.

"OK, concerning the oil pump:
The only difference I know between M62 and S62 oilpump is that the S62 oilpump has the 2 connections for the electric pumps...

The pressure and amout of oil being pumped should be the same... Also I know of some swappers which are using the M62 oilpump and oilpan... so I do not see a problem...
What I would always recommend is installing an oilpressure gauge... so you can see if there are some problems....

The vanos makes no problem as this has its own oilpump in the vanos-unit and the oilpump just supplies the oil and the amount of oil needed is not really much... there is just a piston that is moved and this will be done by the vanos-oilpump (highpressure!)..."

[M3 euro ltw]

Vanos pump...

You guys are operating under a false assumption.

The vanos system on S62 operates under VERY high pressure, and the pump is integrated into each vanos unit up on each head.

It is essentially chain driven alone with the cam, see photo here:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5-e52-z8-discussion/196949-diy-cleaning-vanos.html

The oil pumps for these engines also have an unfiltered output to the front of the engine for the chains. That is the thin tube you show.

I have some experience with S50B3X vanos, there, like S54, S62 vanos pump is in vanos unit.

If you plan on running the S62, that M5 forum is full of excellent tech information. It is NOT a kids forum, and a far more mature place to read and learn about the cars.

From a practical standpoint, I do not think you will be able to duplicate proper directed scavenging from heads vs rear of sump the way the S62 pan does it. The least of the issues are abs sensor information. Putting E46 MK 20 ABS onto your car would be child's play compared to trying to retain the S62 dual stage pump and internal pan scavenging system WITH the X5 AWD spacial pan limitations.

But, if you do some relatively cheap data farming on oil pressure, and did in fact find that there were issues, adding an accusump would be a quick way to fix the situation I think.

[The Dark Side of Will]

I didn't realize that the connection from the oil pump to the VANOS was low pressure.

The S62 already has an accumulator to assure a constant supply of oil to the VANOS.

[M3 euro ltw]

I didn't realize that the connection from the oil pump to the VANOS was low pressure.

It is low pressure in the sense that its merely sending oil to the vanos unit for its pump to supply a dedicated and closed circuit.

The main oil pump does not feed the vanos solenoids directly. It does have a secondary section with it's own separate smaller diameter tube to the front of the engine to lubricate the chains in some fashion. [I don't believe that is the source of oil to the vanos unit however. I think the oil comes in from the cylinderheads via the back of the vanos unit, one of the O rings on the back protects that connection.]

The S62 already has an accumulator to assure a constant supply of oil to the VANOS.

The accumulator that you point out is isolated and only storing oil under high pressure from the dedicated vanos pumps in each cylinderhead. When I mention adding an accusump, it is to make up for the lack of oil pressure not to the vanos (which is a closed circuit after its dedicated pump and accumulator), rather for the rods/bearings.

The accumulator you mention will do nothing to preserve the bearings in the rods or crank from starvation that the solenoids and dual stage S62 pump is designed to prevent.

(by the way, I'm not picking a fight with you... you guys are charting new territory here, I'm really sincerely only trying to help, and in this case, perhaps help keep on track..... I'm working separately on a somewhat related project, so the research I did bears on this subject as well.... so, hopefully, you won't feel defensive on this)

I'm certain to have questions very soon about this (not the AWD aspect), so I don't want to alienate anyone!

[Turk]

Don't worry mate. Your comments are very much appreciated. Why would valid info offend us in anyway?! At the end of the we are playing around with complex kit and some very expensive mistakes could be on the horizon. So every spec of info is welcome!!

Do you any links to accusumps and their figment cost etc?

Cheers
Turk

[The Dark Side of Will]

Thanks for the info on how the system works. I hadn't thought it would be that distributed.

I'm going to give adapting the active sump to the E53 pan a shot. As far as hardware goes, it's just machine work and fab, which really isn't anything new.

The electronics could be very interesting, however. I have a lot of research to do in the E39 M5 ETM (If I can find one) regarding how the DSC is hooked up. I just need to hook up enough that the DSC will communicate chassis loading to the DME... not enough to get the DSC to actually work. If the necessary signals are just wheel speed sensors, that can be done. If it includes a chassis accelerometer, that can be mounted somewhere in the E30 body.

Of course that may be a naive viewpoint. The DSC may want to talk to the bus master (body computer?) and get the thumbs up signal before it even finishes booting.

In the last ditch effort, since the active sump electrically is just a pair of solenoids, a G-sensitive switch could be built to operate it outside of computer control. Maybe an Ardruino microcontroller could be used to operate the valves... There are lot of possibilities.

[nando]

you need the WDS for the E39. there's no "ETM", but it's basically the same thing:
wds.spaghetticoder.org

[M3 euro ltw]

Solenoids, scavenging

A: Keep two stage pump with active solenoids scavenging from one of 3 locations..left head, right head, rear of engine, add Mk 20 ABS to your car, preserve solenoid function, re-design pump pickups, location, and scavenging plumbing to somehow use X5 pan....or some homebrew accelerometer program
B: Collect Data, and if there is a problem, add a cheap accusump

I admire BMW tremendously for their ingenuity and problem solving. They have made some tremendous advances in bringing high-tech engineering down to consumer projects.

In the case of the S62 scavenging system, there are several considerations to take into account. First off, it is designed under side load to scavenge from the dependent cylinderhead.

Consider that if the car you're building will have stiffer springs and suspension than a stock E39 M5 you may never load the car up enough to allow oil collection in the head in the first place. IE, the relative softness of a stock car might have meant that they HAD to do something. Consider that people beat and beat on other BMW V8 cars with very similar architecture without ever getting into trouble. It MAY not be that important to you for YOUR project.

Consider also, that you may be able to add in some baffles to keep oil from collecting at the back of the engine requiring scavenging selectively when accelerating forward. Heck of a lot cheaper and easier than A or B

I have bought an S62 for my race car, and non of my plans to make it work include preservation of the factory oil scavenging, and yet, I'm not really concerned that even this expensive kit will show issues with dropped oil pressure. If so, it will get an Accusump for sure. Too easy a solution.

Adding Mk 20 ABS would be REALLY easy, and many, many people are doing this already as it will really enhance your braking, and heck, YOU'LL NEED IT.

[Turk]

so in essence what you are saying is that if the x5 sump and pump were to be used, it would be sensible to baffle the sump to prevent oil collection at the rear of the sump?

then if there are pressure issue move to accusump...

From my understanding as I will be having the oil switches disabled through the ecu anyways the adaptive pump has no chance of doing what it needs to anyhow... Therefore moving to an M62 pump will offer identical characteristics as the s62's pump with inactive switches.

How much do accusumps go for and would they be compatible with x5 stuff?

[The Dark Side of Will]

http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=accusump ;)


Also...

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170788305531

Keep an eye on this. The tall ratios for the front end are quite rare.
It may or may not be compatible with the E53 sump or front diff case, however. The E70 front diffs have the crown wheel welded to the carrier. I don't know what goes on inside the E60 front diff, what width the carrier is across the bearings or anything.

[M3 euro ltw]

so in essence what you are saying is that if the x5 sump and pump were to be used, it would be sensible to baffle the sump to prevent oil collection at the rear of the sump?

then if there are pressure issue move to accusump...

From my understanding as I will be having the oil switches disabled through the ecu anyways the adaptive pump has no chance of doing what it needs to anyhow... Therefore moving to an M62 pump will offer identical characteristics as the s62's pump with inactive switches.

How much do accusumps go for and would they be compatible with x5 stuff?

Not sure what they cost, I'm sure there are various price points for quality like anything else.

It is difficult to read BMW's mind, or have insight into their data.
I think it is fair to assume that the pump and pan that came on M62 engines in the E39 chassis was not up to spec, or they would have used that.

It is pure speculation as to whether the X5 pump and pan set ups is better or worse in terms of performance and or need of baffles.

If they had made a version of S62 to go into the X5, we would know...they would have retained the X5 pan, or done something different. Alas, we know not.

And, yes, I agree, if there is functionality for the pair of solenoids that you're flashing out, you certainly don't have to worry about retaining the two stage S62 pump..... although, you could have improved vapor management, and less risk of lateral scavenge issues if you simply plumbed to scavenge BOTH heads, all the time with a second stage.

Dry-Sumpers with NASCAR boys might have a 5 stage pump. One for each head, one for the valley, two for the pan. or something like that.

Alex.

[The Dark Side of Will]

The 3.8 litre E34 M5 also had an active sump that behaved similarly to the E39 sump, but obviously only on left turns...

I think it was both the M5's increased lateral g capability relative to the 540 and the probability that it would be driven hard (specifically that it was *designed* to be driven hard) that drove them to the active sump.