1985 323i 2.3 l euro over/fueling; running very bad!

[2002jm]

We have been working all week on this!:) Changed out the following:
fuel pump, filter, rubber hoses.
ignition module, coolant temp sensor, plugs
fuel pressure regulator, had injectors cleaned and flow tested
changes out the afm to a 1986 325e just to see if it would make a difference...nope
Now the problem.
Car starts if I give it a bit of throttle, but runs very rich, until the plugs foul and then runs bad; very bad
But if I pull the fuel pump fuse and run the car on residual pressure, it runs good; 750 rpm and no smoke :pretty smooth....until it runs out of fuel in the rail.
We have checked the omhs, on the coolant sensor and at the ecu.
We checked timing and the timing belt marks with the distributor; all is fine.
Car will not idle without throttle, but seems to run better if we pull the valve cover vac hose off the intake.
Checked wires, plugs, plugs are new,
Only thing we have not checked is the tps(throttle position sensor, but I can hear it click when the throttle opens.
ok, sorry for the long post, but we have run out of ideas, vac leaks have been checked, so no major hoses off and everything is tight.
Anyone have the same problem?
thanks, jm
oh, and 5 gal of gas in the tank, I drained the 2 gal of bad fuel from the tank.

[82eye]

what is the cold start injector doing during this ? wondering if it's continuing to operate past the start.

also the afm is different from what we got here. the 323i was set up a bit different.

[2002jm]

As far as I can tell, there is no cold start injector, but you are right if it stays on it will flood the engine. I have the oem afm on the car right now. Had a 325e one on there, did not make much difference; a bit better, so I put the original one back on.
thanks for the reply,
jm

[82eye]

As far as I can tell, there is no cold start injector, but you are right if it stays on it will flood the engine. I have the oem afm on the car right now. Had a 325e one on there, did not make much difference; a bit better, so I put the original one back on.
thanks for the reply,
jm

if it's got a cold start injector it will sit on the back of the exhaust side of the intake right above the valve cover.




it's the one with the blue electrical connector and fuel hose beside the icv. it triggers on a coolant temp sensor. if the sensor goes bad it's possible it may continue to fire. normally it only fires for a few seconds and stops once the engine is turning.

the afm is different from the 325e and 325i and probably won't work correct. it also changed in sept of 85. if you suspect the original is not working you might want to see if bavrest or another specialist can fix it.

edit : post a couple pics of both sides of your engine bay so we can see how your car is set up. if it doesn't have the cold start injector then it's likely the system is no longer stock, or has been updated to a 325i motronic 1.3 from the 1.1.

[2002jm]

Thanks for the reply. here is my engine; no csv that I can see; do you guys see anything I have missed?

[82eye]

We have been working all week on this!:) Changed out the following:

Car starts if I give it a bit of throttle, but runs very rich, until the plugs foul and then runs bad; very bad
But if I pull the fuel pump fuse and run the car on residual pressure, it runs good; 750 rpm and no smoke :pretty smooth....until it runs out of fuel in the rail.

it's probably running on the cold start injector fuel. when you pull the fuse it takes the main injector banks out and the pump won't pressurize the rail, so the only thing you have left is the cold start injector.

it could point to bad or incorrect main injectors. i think the 323i runs on 14lb injectors as opposed to the 325i 16lb. they may have been swapped to something not compatible, or the originals could be leaking and in need of replacement.

We have checked the omhs, on the coolant sensor and at the ecu.

there are two coolant sensors. one is for the gauge and does not effect start, the other informs the ecu and triggers the cold start injector. make sure you've identified the correct one.

Car will not idle without throttle, but seems to run better if we pull the valve cover vac hose off the intake.

you're introducing more air which will help in a rich situation when you do that.

vac leaks have been checked, so no major hoses off and everything is tight.

run a smoke test if you haven't. could be a simple leak, but i would expect lean, not rich in that instance. run the smoke anyway if you haven't.

[82eye]

Thanks for the reply. here is my engine; no csv that I can see; do you guys see anything I have missed?

honestly does not look like a set up i was expecting. and i don't see a cold start injector. has your car been updated to motronic 1.3 ? what ecu are you running ?

edit : super sweet engine bay by the way

[2002jm]

Do you have an idea where the cold start injector is? Would it not have to be near the fuel rail to get gas? The blue coolant temp sensor is new and we checked the resistance and it was correct and also correct at the ecu pin. The injectors were taken out and flow tested, I have to assume they are correct for this car; but I will check into that. I assume the fuel is coming from the rail when the fuse is taken out. Runs until the rail is empty; and runs good; plug in the pump and it runs really bad.
thanks for the help. We did replace the ignition module, no difference doing that.
We are going to check with a smoke test, but like you said that would make it run lean; which it is not. black smoke and white unburnt fuel.
thanks again,
anyone have any ideas; I did change the timing belt, but everything is lined up. We checked the distributor; might be one tooth off, but we never took it out; however the book says it is suppose to be lined up the the "z" mark. It is lined up to the 0 mark....could that be the problem? Timing is off; and that would make it run rich? It does not start without throttle, so does that mean the timing is off? thanks again for any help,
jm

[82eye]

it's not your timing. i'd really like to know what set up you are running. it does not look like a 323i motronic 1.1 with cold start injector. it looks to have been updated at some point. did you buy the car this way ?

edit : what is the production date of the car ? all my fixating on the cold start injector isn't going to help with that set up.

[2002jm]

honestly does not look like a set up i was expecting. and i don't see a cold start injector. has your car been updated to motronic 1.3 ? what ecu are you running ?

edit : super sweet engine bay by the way

Maybe it has been undated??? I do not know the difference. The computer is a #308 and the sticker says 323i; I tried a Bosch 301 and this did not work, car would not start.
thanks for the comment; yes, I have a ton of hartge parts to put on this car, too bad it will not run:).
thanks,
jm

[2002jm]

The production date according to RealOem bmw is june of 1985. I bought the car this way.
Below is my 'other hartge h26" that I sold a few years back. It is the same engine.
thanks,
jm

[82eye]

pretty sure 308 is the 323i ecu. on a closer look it appears you have an air slide, not a cold start injector. suggests the car is on l-jet and is not motronic. you could pull the air slide and check if it is working. if it doesn't open up it could be causing a rich condition - the air slide obviuolsy add air to the intake when the car is warm.

i completely led you down the wrong path on the cold start injector since it's l-jet. it's a precursor to motronic.

more info on l-jet

https://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?2421864-E30-323i-Resource-Thread

https://www.e30zone.net/e30wiki/index.php/Jetronic#:~:text=LE%2DJetronic%20was%20the%20first ,control%20the%20fuel%20injection%20accordingly.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/101-projects-discussion-forum-bmw-3-series/1029753-1985-e30-323i-addition-air-slide-valve-m20.html

edit : l-jet changed in 85 and dropped the cold start injector. your car is in a change over year and is a problem to figure out.

[2002jm]

Thank you very much for the input; I will pull the slide tomorrow and see what is going on with it:)
thanks again,
jm

[82eye]

Thank you very much for the input; I will pull the slide tomorrow and see what is going on with it:)
thanks again,
jm

i'm embarrassed at all the confusion i threw at you. i hope those links help clear it up. you can test the slide by putting it in the fridge. if you look through it there will be a hole opening up as it warms to room temp. you should see light through it, there's a little window that opens up.

[2002jm]

also going to check the additional air control valve tomorrow. yes the links were very helpful; the add. air valve needs to be checked also.
jm