Vanos vs. NON

[Brian 89 325i]

OK i know i brought this up bofore but i cant find the damn post so here goes.

Im currently looking for an M50 to FINALLY start my swap. BUT i cant seem to find any good VANOS M50's. SO what do i gain from getting a VANOS M50.
I know it makes for better street driving but other than that what do i need it for?
Also other than the vanos thing, is there anything better about the 93+ engines as oppsoed to the 91/92's? I could easily buy 3 or 4 NV M50's right now. Thanks

My car will see the track ocasionaly but mostly enthusiastic street driving.

Thanks
Brian

[nando]

go non-vanos and swap in some M3 cams..

[PJ325i]

According to Stu VANOS cams won't work in Non-VANOS motor

[nando]

According to Stu VANOS cams won't work in Non-VANOS motor

what does that have to do with anything? you can get M3 cams for a non vanos motor, but AFAIK you can't do the same for a vanos M50.

[Fred]

Non-VANOS guys seem to think they're engines are better because they have slightly hotter cams (240 versus 228, I think), they can adjust their timing, and have an extra horsepower or two, but I think the overall consensus is that the VANOS engines are more efficient and have more performance parts available.

Furthermore, as far as the cams go, you can only swap VANOS to VANOS, not VANOS to non-VANOS. If you take a 1995 M3, which has single VANOS on the intake side, you can swap both intake and exhaust cams into a 1993+ 325i, but for the 1992 325i you can probably swap only the non-VANOS exhaust cam, but not the intake cam.

Hope that makes sense.

[PJ325i]

You CAN get cams that are "M3 spec" that work for non-VANOS motors.

[Bimmer_Boy]

Go vanos, non vanos engines have their few advantages in that they have hotter cams and little things here and there but the vanos motor is an overall better motor, well they have vanos which is a good thing, they have better low end torque and there are also more parts availble for the vanos motor as opposed to the nonvanos motor. Also remember that the 92 325s have had more recalls then any other bmw in bmw history. Non vanos motors also tend to have much more miles then the vanos ones mainly because of age. There is a reason why the non-vanos motor is cheaper, and when you come to think of it, its not really because of availability (there are more vanos engines then non-vanos). Also something to consider, the non-vanos engines had i believe 192hp where as the vanos engines had 189hp. Even with the hotter cams the non vanos only has 3 more hp, in a way, they "detuned" the vanos engine and retained pretty much the same hp. Just think of how much hp you would get when you add M3 cams to the vanos motors. Also to clear things up. Fred is right, the E36 M3 cams will swap directly into the vanos motors and optimized with a chip. The E36 M3 exhaust cam can be used on the non vanos motor but not the intake (vanos) cam. I've heard that some people us 2 exhaust cams from the M3 and put it in the non vanos engine. You can get the "M3 spec" cams for the non vanos motor, but that would be very expensive because they are usually custom cams. You might as well get the shrick cams or some other aftermarket company's cams.

[rwh11385]

Welcome to my post, 3 months ago.....

;)

http://www.r3vlimited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1703&highlight=vanos

Resurrected Topic: Vanos vs. Non-vanos

Basically there are a few key points.
Non-vanos can be bored to 86mm
Vanos only to 85mm.

Non-vanos come with hotter cams. And dual valve springs.
Vanos have mild shit, but valve timing with vanos.

Vanos units can fail - ~$1000.

Vanos can put in M3 Cams + chip for great upgrade (Trent did this, and I believe Lukas)
Non-vanos.:

From my other thread:

--european car's BMW Tech Letters--

BMW Cam Swap
Do 1996-99 M3 cams work in the M50 engine?

We spoke with Pete McHenry of Precision Performance in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. McHenry is a well-known expert on BMW engine swaps and parts interchangeability. He advises: The M50 2.5-liter VANOS cams are 228-degree duration, while S53 3.2-liter M3 cams are 252 intake and 240 exhaust. They fit fine and give a nice boost to the top end on a 2.5-liter M50. You can use the S52 cams with the M50 lifters and springs. The S52 uses smaller lifters (33mm vs. 35mm diameter) and conical valve springs with teeny retainer washers. Net saving with this stuff is 20 grams per valve. Get the S52 cam trays, lifters and springs if you can but the swap is OK with cams only as mentioned earlier. If you have a 1992 M50, you can switch the intake cam to the exhaust. Timing is 240 on both, but the intake has 9.7 lift vs. 9.0. Buy a 252 Schrick intake cam and you have the same cams as an M3 and only have to buy one camshaft.
--Mike Miller

If this is a daily driver, vanos = more MPG probably. If track car = non-V better.....

[Bimmer_Boy]

Welcome to my post, 3 months ago.....

;)

http://www.r3vlimited.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1703&highlight=vanos

Resurrected Topic: Vanos vs. Non-vanos

Basically there are a few key points.
Non-vanos can be bored to 86mm
Vanos only to 85mm.

Non-vanos come with hotter cams. And dual valve springs.
Vanos have mild shit, but valve timing with vanos.

Vanos units can fail - ~$1000.

Vanos can put in M3 Cams + chip for great upgrade (Trent did this, and I believe Lukas)
Non-vanos.:

From my other thread:

--european car's BMW Tech Letters--

BMW Cam Swap
Do 1996-99 M3 cams work in the M50 engine?

We spoke with Pete McHenry of Precision Performance in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. McHenry is a well-known expert on BMW engine swaps and parts interchangeability. He advises: The M50 2.5-liter VANOS cams are 228-degree duration, while S53 3.2-liter M3 cams are 252 intake and 240 exhaust. They fit fine and give a nice boost to the top end on a 2.5-liter M50. You can use the S52 cams with the M50 lifters and springs. The S52 uses smaller lifters (33mm vs. 35mm diameter) and conical valve springs with teeny retainer washers. Net saving with this stuff is 20 grams per valve. Get the S52 cam trays, lifters and springs if you can but the swap is OK with cams only as mentioned earlier. If you have a 1992 M50, you can switch the intake cam to the exhaust. Timing is 240 on both, but the intake has 9.7 lift vs. 9.0. Buy a 252 Schrick intake cam and you have the same cams as an M3 and only have to buy one camshaft.
--Mike Miller

If this is a daily driver, vanos = more MPG probably. If track car = non-V better.....

Why would you want to bore a 2.5 liter engine? After the cost of that you would have exceded the cost of an actual s50 motor. As far as the Vanos motor not being able to be bored to 86mm is false, thats one of those myths when one person says it, and since no one knows anybetter everyone believes it. I've spoken to various engine builders like Active autowerke and Dinan and neither of them had any problems boring a vanos motor to M3 spec and that they have done it many times. The one true advantage that the non vanos motor has over the vanos motor is the dual valve springs. But if one were to go and actually track their car many times the valve springs on the vanos motors are upgraded to either the conical ones or they would buy the dual valve springs for their car. As far as the non vanos engine being better at the track then the vanos motors that is a whole other discussion. But if this were true, you would see alot of E36 M3 drivers disable their vanos unit to go to the track, and haveing a neighbor that use to race his E36 M3, thats something that would not be done. Take European car's Project M3 for an example, a heavily modified street car that is often tracked, no where does he ever disable his vanos unit. And the reaon why I'm comparing the M50 with the S50 is because the S50 is based on the M50 and that those motors are very similar, sure the every component is pretty much bigger in the s50, they share alot of the same parts, in fact the head is almost identical.

[rwh11385]

Try some paragraphs or enter key....please. :P

Anyway. There has been someone who build an M50 to S50 spec. Don't ask me why but he did.

I read what I read, and people have been saying 85mm is max for vanos blocks.

If I was going to hit the track a lot:
1) I won't want the Vanos in the head. It's just something else to break.....
2) You don't need a Vanos unit.......it's not going to make you any faster around the track

Vanos is about compromise. It gives better lower end for a more street-worthy engine. Track car does need this, it wants top end power, and probably could give two shits about gas mileage.

Depends how Brian wants to do with this. I think it wil be DD. So if he cares about gas, might go for vanos. If he could save on the engine, go for Non-V.

What good is Vanos? As Fred says, on the Non-V you can adjust the timing (i.e. advance it), and use just M3-spec cams.....so why do you need retard the timing at low rpms........that's unneccessary.....

[Bimmer_Boy]

well being able to have low end tq is very nice around the track as there will be turns will you need to slow down and build up speed right back up. You're not always at redline and at 50mph during a turn (the corkscrew at laguna seca is a perfect example).
As far as adjusting the timing on the non-vanos engines, yes you can do this, but many people run custom software, advancing the timing through the cam and also though the software can give problems, Having the vanos thats one less thing to worry about, have the timing set and let the vanos do its job. Most people dont have a dyno tosee if the timing advance is beneficial or not. Sometimes advanceing the timing can do more damage then good.

[Bryson]

Brian, about the non-vanos motors... anything below 800? I want a non-v

[rwh11385]

There were a pair on the FS for about that much. I know one was asking 800, but it is in W-S, NC.

[Brian 89 325i]

I think wes has one right now, also there is a guy on roadfly classifieds that has 2. One thats stock for 800 and one that has mods for 1500. Good luck.

In all honesty i think im going to hold out for a vanos m50 because of the obvious street advantages and the fact that parts are much more common. THanks for all of the info. I was aware about the cam swaps in the vanos motors but i didnt know about cams for the non V. Also, I had heard you could swap in 3.2 cams in to a 2.5 M50 but was unsure if it was ture. Also, whats better, THe 3.0 cams or the 3.2 cams in a 2.5 M50? WHY?

Thanks
Brian

-continues looking for a VANOS M50

[randomtask37]

if i got my hands on a 92 m50, is there any way to get the low end tq of a vanos motor while still keeping the up top power?