5 lug vs 4 lug

[Spaz]

Sorry to bump an old thread but did anyone get actual numbers of their 5lug alignment?

-Cam

[Aptyp]

The cosmetics are completely unimportant for me; I could give two shits how it looks. I want to fit big brakes under big lightweight track wheels, and this is the most affordable option if I want a wheel larger than 17x8.

So, like nando said: numbers please. If the caster is less than an stock e30.....not so good.

Gotcha, I don't remember if I ever got a print out, but if I did, it's in my glove box. I'll search tomorrow for you.

[daniel]

i'm getting an alignment soon after i get my new tires mounted, so i'll see if i can get a printout from the shop that does it showing the caster numbers.

and for the record, when i got an alignment last year and they adjusted the camber to stock e30 camber, the IE camber plates weren't adjusted all the way in just to achieve that. they sit around the middle, or maybe slightly in. basically there is plenty of room left to go if you wanted mad negative camber.

[Bimmerman325i]

That means that most people whine at the cosmetic difference. If you set caster with the e36 swap to e30 specs, you'll be rubbing pretty bad and it will LOOK like caster is off. That's the whole point of me saying that e36 towers are moved forward by about 2", which makes them more vertical than e30's, and that makes the difference in caster when you rotate entire assembly over outer balljoint. So you're trying to set your caster between e30 and e36 specs.


I have e36 rack, and even e36s come with spacer-locks for tie-rods when use 225s in the front... Besides, not very often I go lock to lock. Goodyear aligned my car, and car runs perfect, 15k miles this summer and tires are perfect all around.


One of the wonderful things about doing this swap, you also learn a lot about your suspension, alignments, and how it works. A lot of people could benefit from this.

The cosmetics are completely unimportant for me; I could give two shits how it looks. I want to fit big brakes under big lightweight track wheels, and this is the most affordable option if I want a wheel larger than 17x8.

So, like nando said: numbers please. If the caster is less than an stock e30.....not so good.

[Aptyp]

That means that most people whine at the cosmetic difference. If you set caster with the e36 swap to e30 specs, you'll be rubbing pretty bad and it will LOOK like caster is off. That's the whole point of me saying that e36 towers are moved forward by about 2", which makes them more vertical than e30's, and that makes the difference in caster when you rotate entire assembly over outer balljoint. So you're trying to set your caster between e30 and e36 specs.


I have e36 rack, and even e36s come with spacer-locks for tie-rods when use 225s in the front... Besides, not very often I go lock to lock. Goodyear aligned my car, and car runs perfect, 15k miles this summer and tires are perfect all around.


One of the wonderful things about doing this swap, you also learn a lot about your suspension, alignments, and how it works. A lot of people could benefit from this.

[nando]

Height of of the housings changes nothing... They're COILOVERS. Height adjusts, so that comment is somewhat retarded (unless you meant something different)...

The only thing I could think of, they have mounting points welded at a slight angle to the strut tube, but they took pics well enough not to be able to see it. I can see how that could aid caster a little bit, but would put more stress on outer balljoint.

I still haven't put e36 m3 control arms on, and only rub I get is on the inside rail at full lock and I run a slightly oversize diameter tire. With steering wheel turn 1/8 of the way, wheels are in prefect position on both sides for you not to be able to tell that caster is off. This swap has been done by way too many people, and most of the time you can't even tell. It's already been shown by Daniel that you can run ET 20 wheels, so possibilities of stock wheels are endless as well.

Seems like the only skepticism you have is cosmetics, though...

so you can't *tell* that your caster is off? that means it is, or isn't off? have you even put this thing on an alignment rack? put up some numbers or shut it. none of this "well you can't tell, so it's okay"

rubbing the insides at full lock is pretty shitty.

[z31maniac]

The only thing I could think of, they have mounting points welded at a slight angle to the strut tube, but they took pics well enough not to be able to see it. I can see how that could aid caster a little bit, but would put more stress on outer balljoint.

I believe that is exactly what he told me on the phone, but I won't swear to it. He did tell me you still have to use OEM M3 CABs (or poly/delrin offset) AND 96+ M3 Control Arms.

[Aptyp]

Height of of the housings changes nothing... They're COILOVERS. Height adjusts, so that comment is somewhat retarded (unless you meant something different)...

The only thing I could think of, they have mounting points welded at a slight angle to the strut tube, but they took pics well enough not to be able to see it. I can see how that could aid caster a little bit, but would put more stress on outer balljoint.

I still haven't put e36 m3 control arms on, and only rub I get is on the inside rail at full lock and I run a slightly oversize diameter tire. With steering wheel turn 1/8 of the way, wheels are in prefect position on both sides for you not to be able to tell that caster is off. This swap has been done by way too many people, and most of the time you can't even tell. It's already been shown by Daniel that you can run ET 20 wheels, so possibilities of stock wheels are endless as well.

Seems like the only skepticism you have is cosmetics, though...

[z31maniac]

It has nothing to do with strut housings, it's in the camber plate...

I'm going off what Jay at Ground Control told me about custom building the correct geometry into the strut.

I'm not going to continue to argue with you about this.

[Bimmerman325i]

It has nothing to do with strut housings, it's in the camber plate...


When you look at e30 vs e36 suspensions, strut towers of e36 are more upright, and that's what changes caster between two generations. If you have enough caster adjustment in camber plates, you don't even need e36 m3 control arms or spindles. I like their solution though. If you redrill your shock towers more to the front, you'd have exactly the same effect.


PS, I do like their built housings. GC machined housings are much better than stock stamped out ones.

Right, but since the E30 housings are angled, changing the length of the GC "e36" housings changes the geometry to gain more caster.

About the camber plates.....The E36 M3 5 lug swap I have seen used ground control plates maxed for both camber and caster but was barely able to get back to STOCK e30 settings for caster and camber. It was impossible on that swap to get any additional caster, nor was it possible to get much more camber. Setting the plates to "normal" gave positive camber and craptacular caster. This is why I'm very skeptical of this swap....

[Aptyp]

It has nothing to do with strut housings, it's in the camber plate...


When you look at e30 vs e36 suspensions, strut towers of e36 are more upright, and that's what changes caster between two generations. If you have enough caster adjustment in camber plates, you don't even need e36 m3 control arms or spindles. I like their solution though. If you redrill your shock towers more to the front, you'd have exactly the same effect.


PS, I do like their built housings. GC machined housings are much better than stock stamped out ones.

[z31maniac]

Ccordng to Jay at GC and another member I've spoken with over on the GRM forum. That's why you get a new custom built strut housing.

[Bimmerman325i]

The E30 M3 setup allows for more wheel options, buuuuuuuuuuut what else is the advantage of the E30 M setup over the E36 M/ti setup?

Correct steering geometry and the ability to use bump steer/roll center spacers. Since probably 1% of people going 5 lug are concerned with the latter, I'll talk about the former.

The E36 struts lose front caster, some setups more than others. I have heard and read here that using X combination of lower control arms, lower control arm bushings, and camber plates will return the caster to stock-like numbers, but I have yet to see any numerical proof from an alignment rig. As far as I have researched (quite a decent bit too), the "fixed" front caster is simply a case of internet-gospel rather than actual verified proof.

I would LOVE for someone to post alignment specs proving this combination of parts has the same geometry as the e30 m3 stuff, or negligibly different. Until that happens, it's nothing but hearsay. To the people who keep saying this: prove me wrong, I challenge you. I will happily eat my words then and buy the e36 stuff if that is indeed the case.

The only E36 M3 suspension swap I have seen required camber plates maxed out for caster and camber and had maybe 1 degree of negative camber and still wacked out caster. If you have to run the plates maxed out to only get stock alignment numbers (i.e. you cannot adjust it more for track) then it's a pretty useless swap.

However, the steering geometry issue is pretty much not important for most people swapping the wheels. For people with an eye on tracking, these things are important.

Also, with e30 m3 stuff the brakes have no biasing issues to deal with. I have no idea about M3 front ti/z3/z3M rear biasing to be fair, but it is one less thing to be worried about going with the E30 M3 stuff.

All you have to do is go to the Ground Control site and type "bastard" in the search box. But since that seems a bit much to ask:

http://www.ground-control-store.com/...ion.php/II=812

Does this kit fix the caster issue? If it does, that would be the way I'd do the swap.

[z31maniac]

you keep talking about it, but show it to us please.

All you have to do is go to the Ground Control site and type "bastard" in the search box. But since that seems a bit much to ask:

http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=812

[91 318is]

I keep thinking more and more about doing a 5 lug swap down the road, mainly for the wheel choices. As I'm finding the E30 M3 setup runs about $1800-$2100 depending on who's selling it. I'm thinking more and more about running a E36 M setup in the front, ti/z3/m coupe setup in the rear.

From what I've read, the disadvantage of the E36 swap is the rear brake setup, the Ti stuff works, but there's not much aftermarket brake stuff for it?

What's the pro's and con's of each setup? I know the E36 M front swap is benefited from bigger brakes, the E36 setup costs less.

The E30 M3 setup allows for more wheel options, buuuuuuuuuuut what else is the advantage of the E30 M setup over the E36 M/ti setup?