The 5 lug swap truth thread!!!!!!!!!!

[Javier h]

So the M3 e30 setup would be the way to go for a 5 lug swap, right?

Are there any issues?

[mikeedler]

hmmm i had the same problem on the front. With the washers and EVEN with maxed out camber plates i'd have little camber up front.

lower your LR, give you a bit more camber and match it up if you have coilovers.

your car should drive straight as a bullet. I'd look at slop in your steering components - bushings tie rods balljoints. You have a better alignment that me. OR if your tires are worn unevenly that'll do it too!

LR? I have a rear subframe at the sandblaster that will be recieving the adj. crap whenever it gets back to get the rear to reasonable specs.

Everything EVERYTHING on my front end is BRANDNEW original BMW components including the brakes front and rear. I am running coilovers too, but am already VERY low.

[etxxz]

dug out the very first allignment specs sheet.
I forgot to add in my orig. post-- I also have an assload of washers on the lower bolts of the strut tube to give the car a better amount of camber.

here is what I have........


L/F camber -0°48´ R/F -0°54´
toe 0°06´ 0°06´


L/R camber -1°54´ R/R -2°18´
toe (crapy but cant do anything 0°12´ -0°18´


and the F**King caster isnt on the crappy sheet, I will stick it on there next week again and get that.

hmmm i had the same problem on the front. With the washers and EVEN with maxed out camber plates i'd have little camber up front.

lower your LR, give you a bit more camber and match it up if you have coilovers.

your car should drive straight as a bullet. I'd look at slop in your steering components - bushings tie rods balljoints. You have a better alignment that me. OR if your tires are worn unevenly that'll do it too!


@psyber_Optix: that's why i added a brake bias on the front brake line, otherwise the brake bias to the front is ridiculous. I tuned it originally to lock up all four at nearly the same point/threshhold, but that proved to be dangerous at the track so i opened up the front a bit. The point was to use the rear brakes for something. Brake Bias valve is a MUST on e36 stuff. Otherwise, that person is a poser and i will hate all i want. I have the right to be a hater..

[rkettner]

this is my e30 5 lug with all e36m3 components:


buy these off me and adjust your caster a bit more?

[mikeedler]

dug out the very first allignment specs sheet.
I forgot to add in my orig. post-- I also have an assload of washers on the lower bolts of the strut tube to give the car a better amount of camber.

here is what I have........


L/F camber -0°48´ R/F -0°54´
toe 0°06´ 0°06´


L/R camber -1°54´ R/R -2°18´
toe (crapy but cant do anything 0°12´ -0°18´


and the F**King caster isnt on the crappy sheet, I will stick it on there next week again and get that.

[mikeedler]

i've taken my e30 at past the last speedometer mark doing around 162mph and it drove straight as an arrow.

oh, trust me, I have maxed out the speedo on my car on the autobahn a few times, just saying it does NOT feel nearly as stable as it should. the car drives straight and very nicely in town, just at higher speeds of 60+mph it is not correct.


I am using the later e36 control arms with the E30 M3 offset lollipops.

[psyber_0ptix]

2011 and still no 100% definitive combo, so glad i have E30M3,

sub'd, interested to see what comes out of this thread

what do you mean?? there's a thousand ways to skin a cat ;)

yea i agree; it's like saying swapping a car with an m50 isn't the way to do it. It all depends on what the driver wants, expects, and is willing to spend. Value is subject to personal interpretation so what might be meaningless for some\, is worth it for others. (like justifying Wilwood/Brembo Calipers on a car that spends its time getting groceries or sitting pretty as a garage queen).

[hoveringuy]

I went 5 lug with all of the "proper" e36 M3 stuff. It was better in some ways and worse in others.

I switched back to 4 lugs with GC coilovers and now it's much more better!

Having had both on the same car I prefer the 4 lugs.

[etxxz]

2011 and still no 100% definitive combo, so glad i have E30M3,

sub'd, interested to see what comes out of this thread

what do you mean?? there's a thousand ways to skin a cat ;)

[DTM190]

2011 and still no 100% definitive combo, so glad i have E30M3,

sub'd, interested to see what comes out of this thread

[psyber_0ptix]

I didn't even print them out the last few times ( was only really playing with the toe). the caster wasnt coming out all that wrong on paper, but the car feel like crap and you can def. see the wheel is sitting too far to the rear of the wheelwell. I will have to see if I can find the old printout I had from last year.

you should be using the e36m3 knuckle/radträger this with the 96+ arms correct wheel position and the caster should be fine. The non M has slightly different geometry.



I'm using:

- e36 M3 TC Klein dual adjustable front struts
- Bilstein Sports rear struts
- 60mm I.D. x 150mm @ 450# front spring
- 2.5” I.D. x 5” @ 650# rear spring
- e36 318ti rear trailing arm, calipers, hubs, spindles, rotors, pads
- e32 735i 25mm master cylinder
- e21 320i brake booster
- e36 M3 Front Brakes
- '97 e36 M3 front control arms
- e30 m3 offset bushings
- Suspension Techniques Sway Bars 22mm (f)/19mm (r)
- e30 m3 front endlinks
- Ground Control rear pirch

my wheels are 16x8 et23 summer and 16x7 et20 for winter.

Mine drives straight, with great feedback and no problems. Unfortunately my alignment print is back home in the states and I do not have access to them until I return.



The only disadvantage I see is that because the e36 M3 rotors introduce a 21% rotor diameter increase while the 318ti only offers a 5.4% diameter increase. The front piston bore increases 25% using the e36M3 calipers (48mmstock -> 60mm) while the rear bore on 318ti offers only 6% increase (32mm e30 -> 34mm). Smaller rear bore means higher pressure but less clamping force....setup is even more front bias.

These brakes are severely unbalanced and it is increasingly front bias. While the front does the most braking, it is important to have a balanced brake setup (which is obviously dependent on your suspension as well) but stock balance is a good reference point. The only way to do e36m3 stuff properly is with M-coupe/roadster rears or to build an adapter to accommodate said 312mm rear rotor/40mm bore rear calipers. Unbalanced brakes can actually increase stopping distances....which kinda defeats the purpose.

Another disadvantage to e36 m3 vs e30 m3 hardware is unsprung weight. The e36 M3 stuff is quite heavy.

Front Rotor Weight (lbs) 16.687 (15.89 for OEM Euro 2pc)

Rear Rotor Weight (lbs) 14.065

Front Caliper Weight (lbs) 7.178

Rear Caliper Weight (lbs) 4.608

Front Carrier Weight (lbs) 3.336

Rear Carrier Weight (lbs) 1.903

(incomplete values)
Unsprung weight FA per corner:
E36 M3 = 27.21 lbs (26.413 with Evo rotors)

Unsprung weight RA per corner:
E36 M3 = 20.57 lbs

thats not even including the hubs and such...but yea. I can try to grab the weights for the e30 m3 stuff when I get back to work.



Cliffnotes: E36M3 can definitely be made to work, if balanced with the Mcoupe/MRoadster rears. If using Ti, then probably actually harming your brake balance more than benefit. if you can find e30 m3 stuff, then that would be another lighter alternative which will allow you to run 15" and lower unsprung mass. Whether or not a particular upgrade is worth it is totally subjective and up to the end user. To each their own. Would I do it again? Maybe, but i'd also consider a balanced kit from Massive to get true benefits of a large rotor upgrade. I just didn't want to run larger than 16" and I got ~my~ brakes for relatively cheap. Will be upgrading rears to Z3 M once I get back stateside.

[samiam3356]

If your going e36m stuff, then high offset is a must IMO

If at all possible wait for e30m3 components

[etxxz]

i've taken my e30 at past the last speedometer mark doing around 162mph and it drove straight as an arrow.

setup. (apart from s52)
e36 m3 spindles, brakes etc, CA, inner/outer tie rods & steering rack.
rear 318ti
suspension e30 koni's inside e36 housing. cosmo coilovers (8/10 kg/mm).
e30 sways, e36 sway bar linkages up front.
Wheels DSI and DSII's 17x7.5? et41? Fronts have a 15mm spacer.

Even on my track 245/45-17 NT-01's i don't rub at full lock. The trick was the spacer. Check your alignment.

I do admit, without the spacer, rubbing is unacceptable. So this puts my offset at what, +26?

would i do this again. hell no. although i got my parts for dirt cheap, i should have staid 4-lug, max 15" wheels. bbk on the front. track compount F&R. valve bias (probably to the front line), and that's it. saved lots and lots of time and trouble and customization, welding, cutting sweating, cursing and frankeinsteining my suspension.

[mikeedler]

I didn't even print them out the last few times ( was only really playing with the toe). the caster wasnt coming out all that wrong on paper, but the car feel like crap and you can def. see the wheel is sitting too far to the rear of the wheelwell. I will have to see if I can find the old printout I had from last year.

[Eric]

ohh, btw I am a sevice tech at a dealer over here in Germany and have had the car on our less than 1 year old rack a few times

Mike - what are your alignment specs?