The 5 lug swap truth thread!!!!!!!!!!

[Caperix]

Z4M knuckles also use std E46 arms vs the bigger ball joint in the M arms. The E36 Strut mount is nice if you already have those..

Do you know if there is any geometry difference in the z4m vs the e36m knuckles? If feels like the strut towers are further forward on a z4 but that may just be the extra distance to the firewall.

[moatilliatta]

Z4M knuckles also use std E46 arms vs the bigger ball joint in the M arms. The E36 Strut mount is nice if you already have those..

[Caperix]

Why not the sleeve on the spindle?

I'm currently looking at brake/wheel upgrades for my 91 325. My main issue on the sleeves is that they do not work with abs without repositioning the sensor ring. The redrilled hubs do look a little thin in some spots. If the hub could be pressed out of the bearing without damaging it & a new 5 lug hub pressed in that may be the best option, but as e36 use a different bearing size one would have to be custom built.
There are options for 4 lug bbk but they all use an aftermarket caliper, 5 lug swaps can use factory parts. Wheels are about the same price but 5x120 has more options. I'm sure hose, pads & rotors would improve the braking, but factory e30 parts will look tiny on lager wheels & may not be up to added power in the future. Tire choices are getting limited on anything below 17" so a wheel upgrade from the 14" is needed.
Does anyone know the difference on z4m front knuckles? They have e36 strut mounting but have different part numbers from early & late e36m knuckles?

[AexD]

Whats up guys, im a long time lurker here but decided to sign up and ask a couple of questions.

Im currently restoring a 320i Cab.

I have all 96+ M3 Evo Hubs & LCA's. with Polybushes etc. I didnt realise when researching the swap that there is an issue with the Tie Rods rubbing on the Oil Sump / Pan. Is this a major issue? I have an M50 swap & purple tag rack to go in the car as well. Worst case you get the oil pan modified? Does the angle on the tie rods make it handle like ass? Its just a street car but its going to be a built M50b28 Turbo so i want it to handle correctly or as best it can.

Thanks

Alex

EDIT: I forgot to say i already have a custom set of BC Coilovers with E30 Top Mounts & E36 Lower Mounts so i dont really want to not use the stuff i have, i already also completely restored the parts.

[atmh]

Why not the sleeve on the spindle?

They just kind of weird me out, mostly around strength/stiffness of the front outboard suspension:

• I personally don't like relying on these kinds of very custom parts that are critical to function. If for any reason you would ever need to replace the sleeve, you might have to have it custom machined, since there's no guarantee it will be available in the future
• These parts have to be extremely precise. Any play in the sleeve will contribute to play in the steering of the vehicle, not only that but if they're not well made it could damage the spindle over time
• These parts probably also need to to be corrosion protected. If they start rusting at all, they're both buried in such a way that you can't see them, and critical to function.
• Any other materials than steel are not appropriate for the application, if for no other reason than the fact that the coefficient of thermal expansion needs to be the same.
• I don't know how a sleeve will interact with the retention nut / how much of the nut will still overlap the bearings. I wouldn't want the nut to be too small to retain the bearings. This is unlikely, but still, a factor.
• The hubs are sized for a bigger spindle, so it makes me a little nervous using a smaller spindle. Granted the sizing here is mostly due to the weight of the vehicle, so it's probably not an issue, but still.
• If the bearings fail it could result in spinning the sleeve, and thus destroy the spindle.

It just feels a lot like a band-aid fix to me. A well made part is probably totally fine, and I'm not claiming I have the most rational explanation. I just personally like to keep a lot of the suspension and brake hardware using as much OEM parts as possible (not necessarily e30 OEM, but BMW OEM parts). I'm bummed out that the best solution I have for the rear right now uses a caliper relocation kit, but at least that's easy to inspect and it's on the back so I'm not as worried about a little bit of reduced stiffness or stuff like that (a rear brake caliper having a little more mounting flexibility is a way different thing than play between the front wheel bearings and the spindle). With that said, I haven't taken a super close look at how the e36 M3 front setup changes the suspension geometry, and I may decide in the long run that the geometry changes are a worse trade-off than a sleeve on the spindle, and could change my mind in the future. Plus e36 M3 front parts seem like they're getting more expensive and it might not be long before it's a cost prohibitive option. Again: pick your poison.

[jbontke]

Front all seems to require a sleeve on the spindle, which I'm not a fan of, so for now I'm still planning on going with the e36 M3 front setup.

Why not the sleeve on the spindle?

[atmh]

The rear is easy, apparently. It sounds like you can just swap Z4 hubs into the e30 325i trailing arms, then use a e46 rear brakes (caliper relocation kit required) and it's only a few mm wider track width. That's the route I'm going with the rear.

Front all seems to require a sleeve on the spindle, which I'm not a fan of, so for now I'm still planning on going with the e36 M3 front setup.

I guess point being: you can't just swap hubs without having to also change a bunch of stuff with the brakes, so it's kind of a pick your poison sort of thing.

[Staszek]

Since this is probably the best place to put this.

What about just new hubs? As in an adapted hub. We've seen the IRP/other 5 lug hubs that are essentially an adapter.

Tim's Classic Parts - Sells a 4+5 lug hub. I've been talking with him some and I'm getting closer to going this route. I know some here have run this kit, I think Catuned ran a car with it?


==============================================

I reached out to a few who run adapters (4 to 5 lug) but with many wheels, you're spacing the wheel out to a point where your tire sizes are very limited.

One of them pointed me to this kit from Tim / Clipz.

I was leaning towards this as a possible solution for my wheel whoring tendencies. This + air/coilover mixmatch + new brakes + new rack + other suspension goodies = happy car?

But the more I read on the thread I missed on this, most feel it's not really the safest way as there isn't a lot of material left for the bolts I see now.

==============================================


https://www.timsclassicparts.nl/en_G...s-4x100-5x120/

BMW E30 multi-lug kit made by Clipz Motorsport.

With this kit you can fit 4x100 and 5x120 wheels on your E30 with the original e30 geometry and offset. This set is plug and play and bearings are replaceable.

Major advantage over standard:

• Easily switch from 4x100 and 5x120 wheels (the best of both worlds)
• No E36 struts or anything else needed
• Replaceable bearings
• Original E30 specifications (geometry, offset, brakes, etc.)
• Also new bearings (so no maintenance required in the short term)

This set contains:

• 2 front hubs 4x100 and 5x120 (including bearings)
• 2 rear hubs 4x100 and 5x120
• Optional, select your desired kit:
  • Rear wheel bearings from Meyle
  • With or without ABS
  • Zimmerman brake discs, set of 4, with 4x100 and 5x120 * recommended setup *
  • 16 or 20 Studs kit system (multiple sizes available), for even easier mounting of your wheels. See also Studs Kit
• Front hub mounting nuts
• Cover caps
• Bearing slots for different available wheel bearing diameters

==============================================

Has anyone tried these? I am thinking of going 5 lug in the future, JUst not sure which avenue. This seems like a great solution.

[dadsbmw]

IMHO after doing a bunch of research:

If you just want to run different wheels, get them filled and drilled. That's way easier, cheaper, and less likely to mess with brake balance or suspension geometry.

If you just want bigger brakes, then just use an e30 big brake kit.

The 5-lug swap is, as far as I can tell, not a true performance upgrade unless you're dramatically increasing the power or weight of the car. Obviously it's not worth nothing since the e30 M3 is 5-lug, but there's buttloads of compromises and lots of expense to get it to work.

At this point the only reason I'm still sticking with doing it is because I'm running a turbo car that should be ~400+hp when complete, and I want it to be a sleeper, so the OEM brakes from an e36/e46 and OEM wheels from the 7-series are highly desirable to me, to keep a stock appearance. I'm also running a Mk60 ABS unit (2003+ e46 M3), so having late model stuff for the ABS sensors is a mild bonus, but with that said I'm probably sticking with stock e30 rear TAs (with welded-on reinforcements) with Z4 hubs and e46 325i rear rotors... it's a mish-mash of parts and I'm not particularly fond of that. It will make it difficult to remember what parts to buy in the future when things wear out and need replacing.

Just my $0.02.

I've called shops to inquire filling/drilling in the past and the feedback I've gotten is that they won't do it as it's not safe due to the size of the 5x120 hub bore.

E30 BBK on 4 corners is like $2500, which is quite a lot more compared to swapping to later model 5 lug, not to mention the fact that you're killing two birds with one stone

I'm S52 swapped, so yes I have added significantly more power and some more weight

[atmh]

This is very interesting. Sounds like a stock E30 BBK would be needed if bigger brakes are desired?

I've been doing a bit of research recently as I've been more seriously considering a 5 lug swap for better brakes and different wheel selection. So many of the options just aren't good though, as they create issues with front offset, ABS functionality, and e-brake compatibility. ABS and ebrake are a must have for me, and whats the point of going to 5 lug wheels if none of the 5x120 options will fit under the fenders in the front!

edit: Ok so I'm realizing e30 BBK wont work because all the rotors will be 4 lug. Does anyone make caliper adapters to run larger rotors/calipers? I'm guessing this would still create issues with the ABS/ebrake? Just concessions everywhere!

IMHO after doing a bunch of research:

If you just want to run different wheels, get them filled and drilled. That's way easier, cheaper, and less likely to mess with brake balance or suspension geometry.

If you just want bigger brakes, then just use an e30 big brake kit.

The 5-lug swap is, as far as I can tell, not a true performance upgrade unless you're dramatically increasing the power or weight of the car. Obviously it's not worth nothing since the e30 M3 is 5-lug, but there's buttloads of compromises and lots of expense to get it to work.

At this point the only reason I'm still sticking with doing it is because I'm running a turbo car that should be ~400+hp when complete, and I want it to be a sleeper, so the OEM brakes from an e36/e46 and OEM wheels from the 7-series are highly desirable to me, to keep a stock appearance. I'm also running a Mk60 ABS unit (2003+ e46 M3), so having late model stuff for the ABS sensors is a mild bonus, but with that said I'm probably sticking with stock e30 rear TAs (with welded-on reinforcements) with Z4 hubs and e46 325i rear rotors... it's a mish-mash of parts and I'm not particularly fond of that. It will make it difficult to remember what parts to buy in the future when things wear out and need replacing.

Just my $0.02.

[dadsbmw]

This is very interesting. Sounds like a stock E30 BBK would be needed if bigger brakes are desired?

I've been doing a bit of research recently as I've been more seriously considering a 5 lug swap for better brakes and different wheel selection. So many of the options just aren't good though, as they create issues with front offset, ABS functionality, and e-brake compatibility. ABS and ebrake are a must have for me, and whats the point of going to 5 lug wheels if none of the 5x120 options will fit under the fenders in the front!

edit: Ok so I'm realizing e30 BBK wont work because all the rotors will be 4 lug. Does anyone make caliper adapters to run larger rotors/calipers? I'm guessing this would still create issues with the ABS/ebrake? Just concessions everywhere!

[DEV0 E30]

Since this is probably the best place to put this.

What about just new hubs? As in an adapted hub. We've seen the IRP/other 5 lug hubs that are essentially an adapter.

Tim's Classic Parts - Sells a 4+5 lug hub. I've been talking with him some and I'm getting closer to going this route. I know some here have run this kit, I think Catuned ran a car with it?


==============================================

I reached out to a few who run adapters (4 to 5 lug) but with many wheels, you're spacing the wheel out to a point where your tire sizes are very limited.

One of them pointed me to this kit from Tim / Clipz.

I was leaning towards this as a possible solution for my wheel whoring tendencies. This + air/coilover mixmatch + new brakes + new rack + other suspension goodies = happy car?

But the more I read on the thread I missed on this, most feel it's not really the safest way as there isn't a lot of material left for the bolts I see now.

==============================================


https://www.timsclassicparts.nl/en_G...s-4x100-5x120/

BMW E30 multi-lug kit made by Clipz Motorsport.

With this kit you can fit 4x100 and 5x120 wheels on your E30 with the original e30 geometry and offset. This set is plug and play and bearings are replaceable.

Major advantage over standard:

• Easily switch from 4x100 and 5x120 wheels (the best of both worlds)
• No E36 struts or anything else needed
• Replaceable bearings
• Original E30 specifications (geometry, offset, brakes, etc.)
• Also new bearings (so no maintenance required in the short term)

This set contains:

• 2 front hubs 4x100 and 5x120 (including bearings)
• 2 rear hubs 4x100 and 5x120
• Optional, select your desired kit:
  • Rear wheel bearings from Meyle
  • With or without ABS
  • Zimmerman brake discs, set of 4, with 4x100 and 5x120 * recommended setup *
  • 16 or 20 Studs kit system (multiple sizes available), for even easier mounting of your wheels. See also Studs Kit
• Front hub mounting nuts
• Cover caps
• Bearing slots for different available wheel bearing diameters

==============================================

[moatilliatta]

The KW E30M front kit isn’t a bad recent option, I think it’s the best bolt on option if you can match the rear and not shooting for bigger bearings, sub 275 whp.

If one can sort the pickup points I think the E36M / Z3M parts are a good option into the future with current part supply. (+300whp) The future only knows if E46 3l or Z4M stuff maybe an alternative when the E36M stuff drys up.

The 4 cylinder rear Z3 stuff seems like a waste. Mismatched track, smaller bearings. Fine probably for a 4cyl car that is trying to stay light.

The MK60 abs sensors have been fitting to E30 uprights / trailing arms.

[///M_US_E30]

Why not just get the new KW E30 M3 front spindles that come complete? All is needed is the bearings and brakes of your choice.

T

[moatilliatta]

225 tires are too small, they're just enough for stock power. IMO. And there is plenty of room for 245's in an early car.

Its good to have camber caster plates to dial in the alignment, As most bmws, you'll just need to reinforce as needed. And these cars aren't getting any younger. Strut towers are moved and are pulling away on any stiffly sprung car over time.

The Pro of the Z3M trailing arm is the bigger bearing, stub, axle, and 5 lug with E36M packaged brakes, The con is the track width, the questionable toe or geometry change (I had over 1/8 toe out when they were initially installed). . I think MRT maybe coming out with Late DTM arms. Which would have bigger bearing and bigger stub axle that will probably use E28/E34 axles. Any upgrade is going to be costly.

The Z3M arms wont be cheaper tomorrow.

Genuine E30 axles are getting hard to come by and aftermarket ones done last. And i'm pretty sure both aren't as good as original ones.

TC doesn't put power down, it limits wheel ship.

If you don't move your pick up points, you'll end up with the same E36M 5 lug specs as everyone else.

E30's are far from racecar suspension. Design a Superstrut for the E30, maybe the closes thing to a double A arm a front strut car would get.

I have Camber gain and Bump steer measurements in my build thread of my 2021 setup. 2022 will see roll center addition minus 4.5 degrees of caster (7.5)