Turner Brake Package

[redhatpat]

... there is a performance benefit for crossdrilled rotors but it probably wont be realized on a street car... (snip)... just do some research

Doctor, heal thyself. Read this archived thread (http://corner-carvers.com/altimathread.php.html) about cross drilled rotors and come away more knowledgeable.

Actually, I'd recommend anyone to read it. It's long, but full of great brake rotor tech, and very informative.

[BeirBrennerE30]

Doctor, heal thyself. Read this archived thread (http://corner-carvers.com/altimathread.php.html) about cross drilled rotors and come away more knowledgeable.

Actually, I'd recommend anyone to read it. It's long, but full of great brake rotor tech, and very informative.

ok im coming back to this thred... i guess i do like to argue on the internet after all... that thred actually has very little brake rotor tech in it( i didnt read all of it but the first 1/4 didnt)... its just a couple racers relying on intuition... intuition is good and all but doesnt always produce the correct answer..

problem 1... the size of the contact area your pad has with your rotor has NOTHING to do with the braking force produced... NOTHING... only the force the pad is being pushed by and the material of the pad

problem 2... pads gassing is not a defunct problem with pads... its how brake pads provide/produce friction... slotted rotors allow this gas to escape to the center of the vented rotors ... this problem does not creep up on the street and is greatly reduced on race pads for obvious reasons... but there is a benefit... slightly

problem 3... well there are more problems but its early


Ender... good job on getting the ss lines you will like them but remember to check them... enjoy your firmer pedal

[BeirBrennerE30]

HOLY CRAP.... A RACE CAR WITH A SS LINE... THEY MUST BE GOOD FOR SOMETHING

[BeirBrennerE30]

THAT SAME CAR HAS SLOTTED ROTORS... ITS LIKE THESE PEOPLE ACTUALLY KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT HOW THE e30 WORKS... i wonder why??

[BeirBrennerE30]

and what do youknow... they still you ss lines in the DTM to this day...



and dont even start with the rotors... you can xdrill carboncarbon rotors

[BeirBrennerE30]

now im done.... buy whatever you like... im not a doctor yet but i think i heathfully know what im talkin bout but thanks for looking out for my health pat

[Erisa_1974]

HOLY CRAP.... A RACE CAR WITH A SS LINE... THEY MUST BE GOOD FOR SOMETHING

they probably are also replacing those every season, at the very least.

the guy who just replaced his stock lines for SS lines feels a firmer pedal, but the same would be true if he just changed out those 17yo rubber lines for new OEM ones.

[Erisa_1974]

ok im coming back to this thred... i guess i do like to argue on the internet after all... that thred actually has very little brake rotor tech in it( i didnt read all of it but the first 1/4 didnt)... its just a couple racers relying on intuition... intuition is good and all but doesnt always produce the correct answer..

problem 1... the size of the contact area your pad has with your rotor has NOTHING to do with the braking force produced... NOTHING... only the force the pad is being pushed by and the material of the pad

problem 2... pads gassing is not a defunct problem with pads... its how brake pads provide/produce friction... slotted rotors allow this gas to escape to the center of the vented rotors ... this problem does not creep up on the street and is greatly reduced on race pads for obvious reasons... but there is a benefit... slightly

problem 3... well there are more problems but its early


Ender... good job on getting the ss lines you will like them but remember to check them... enjoy your firmer pedal

They have experience. Sure you've installed a lot of stuff to your car, but what's your practical experience with high performance brakes other than the street? The holier-than-thou assumptions of an engineer are bothersome if they ride only on theory, and not practical BTDT racing background.

Of course area isn't important. Friction is normal force * co-efficient. Anyone with a decent intro to physics would know that. A 50lb tall box is just as much work to move as a 50lb long box.

[Erisa_1974]

THAT SAME CAR HAS SLOTTED ROTORS... ITS LIKE THESE PEOPLE ACTUALLY KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT HOW THE e30 WORKS... i wonder why??

those are actually drilled rotors it seems. and non-factory sized either.

they have a larger heatsink which is good, as well as holes to provide escape of the gasses. seems pretty helpful, but a racecar is pretty different from the average e30 streetcar. suggesting everyone should run cross-drilled big brake kits and ss lines to get good braking performance is pretty silly

engineering theory only goes so far, practical experience and reasonability help too. look at the Prepared class e30 racers. they have a lot of sprint racing and maybe an "endurance", but most run blank stock rotors, good pads, and ducting kits. Cost-effective and simple, cheap rotor replacement, and they work. If works for them, no reason it shouldn't work for your average e30 track car, or even a basic daily driver fun car or weekend autocrosser.

[Erisa_1974]

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70527&highlight=brakes

What master cylinder and caliper sizing means to pedal feel
A larger MC results in...
* less pedal travel
* a higher effort pedal
* less hydraulic advantage
* Works well on vehicles that have high fluid volume requirements since you can get plenty of flow with reasonable pedal travel. Large bore master cylinders tend to give less “feedback” and a somewhat isolated feel.

so it will be harder to depress (feel stiffer) but you lose feel quality which may not be what you're looking for. Like mentioned earlier, if you have a BBK and the result was a spongy feel, a 25mm MC may help with that, because...

Calipers:

Larger caliper piston area results in...
* more pedal travel
* a softer pedal
* more hydraulic advantage

Stainless Steel Braided Brake Lines

SS lines will NOT improve braking distance.


What will SS lines do? They will firm up the pedal and will shift the braking pedal feel curve. The later means that you will reach braking force earlier in the pedal stroke than without the SS lines.

Anyway, SS lines do technically firm up the pedal through out the brake pedal stroke. But the difference may not be noticeable all the time.

SS lines almost always make a difference at braking events at or over 0.25g, this is equivalent to the kind of hard braking you see when driving back roads in an aggressive manner. Regular rubber brake hoses will flex initially under high pressure, this is a volume loss that is expressed as dead travel at the pedal.

With SS lines the harder you push on the pedal the more the level of the improvement felt.


**text not in italics was copied from bf.c thread**

[BeirBrennerE30]

they probably are also replacing those every season, at the very least.

the guy who just replaced his stock lines for SS lines feels a firmer pedal, but the same would be true if he just changed out those 17yo rubber lines for new OEM ones.

they arent expensive... im sure he can replace them every other year too.. i know i do...

[BeirBrennerE30]

They have experience. Sure you've installed a lot of stuff to your car, but what's your practical experience with high performance brakes other than the street?

Of course area isn't important. Friction is normal force * co-efficient. Anyone with a decent intro to physics would know that. A 50lb tall box is just as much work to move as a 50lb long box.

this was directed at the thred posted... in the first part the so called expert said that xdrilled rotors are bad because you are taking away contact area with the rotor... this is clearly wrong... he can have as much practical expirence as he wants but thats not how brakes work and if he designs he brakes around that then he willhave a poor set up...

[BeirBrennerE30]

those are actually drilled rotors it seems. and non-factory sized either.

they have a larger heatsink which is good, as well as holes to provide escape of the gasses. seems pretty helpful, but a racecar is pretty different from the average e30 streetcar. suggesting everyone should run cross-drilled big brake kits and ss lines to get good braking performance is pretty silly

engineering theory only goes so far, practical experience and reasonability help too. look at the Prepared class e30 racers. they have a lot of sprint racing and maybe an "endurance", but most run blank stock rotors, good pads, and ducting kits. Cost-effective and simple, cheap rotor replacement, and they work. If works for them, no reason it shouldn't work for your average e30 track car, or even a basic daily driver fun car or weekend autocrosser.

this represents the final evolution of the e30 as far as performance is concerned(with out doing anything incredably drastic)... if you require braking above what good pads and ss line provide yoru next step is larger rotors and miltipiston calipers...not everyone needs huge brakes... but if you do then you do... but my point in posting that pic was to show that ssline and xdrilled rotors are a part of any well designed braking system(not the size of the rotors)

as far as spec e30 is concerned... i have no idea what rules concerning braking or suspension are in that class and since i dont know i have no comment...

[BeirBrennerE30]

[url]

What master cylinder and caliper sizing means to pedal feel
A larger MC results in...
* less pedal travel
* a higher effort pedal
* less hydraulic advantage
* Works well on vehicles that have high fluid volume requirements since you can get plenty of flow with reasonable pedal travel. Large bore master cylinders tend to give less “feedback” and a somewhat isolated feel.

Calipers:

Larger caliper piston area results in...
* more pedal travel
* a softer pedal
* more hydraulic advantage

Stainless Steel Braided Brake Lines

SS lines will NOT improve braking distance.


What will SS lines do? They will firm up the pedal and will shift the braking pedal feel curve. The later means that you will reach braking force earlier in the pedal stroke than without the SS lines.

Anyway, SS lines do technically firm up the pedal through out the brake pedal stroke. But the difference may not be noticeable all the time.

SS lines almost always make a difference at braking events at or over 0.25g, this is equivalent to the kind of hard braking you see when driving back roads in an aggressive manner. Regular rubber brake hoses will flex initially under high pressure, this is a volume loss that is expressed as dead travel at the pedal.

With SS lines the harder you push on the pedal the more the level of the improvement felt.


**

isnt this what i have said this whole thred that no one seems to want to believe me on???

the smaller pedal travel negates the loss of feel... a firmer pedal allows the driver to better modulate the brakes

[Erisa_1974]

they arent expensive... im sure he can replace them every other year too.. i know i do...

yes, because that is a fun job to do the rear upper brake lines every other year. for what? the fuh raze feel? most street cars would be well off with new lines, whereas a lot of people are "upgrading" to SS lines without consideration of their replacement interval.

as far as area with xdrilled rotors, who knows what he was thinking, but it is true they reduce the material/mass of a rotor, and if they stock-diameter, you are decreasing the size of the heatsink...

but if you do then you do... but my point in posting that pic was to show that ssline and xdrilled rotors are a part of any well designed braking system(not the size of the rotors)

as far as spec e30 is concerned... i have no idea what rules concerning braking or suspension are in that class and since i dont know i have no comment...

just because raceteams use certain items does not mean they would really help street-driven e30s... do you see many custom control arms on daily driver e30s like the prodrive car??

not spec e30, J/K/L/M prepared e30 (where brakes can be upgraded/changed). There are a lot of people who assume BBKs are the way to go with IP e36 m3s, but some intelligent ones know stock do very well already. Not that e30 stock can compare, but fast KP drivers don't need xdrilled rotors or BBKs to do well.