do these h&r race really lower the car 3"

[sumyungguy]

H&R Sport (29664)---------------200------------------------285

so nice for daily duty in a 318is...



errol, you made a valid point to Carr on ebay.. I would have been all WTF?!? to his response as well. But, you shouldn't have made your conversation with him public, should have asked how low the springs go or searched. While your custom fabing your front coilovers you should make yourself a new oil pan while your at it.

[errol]

i hear ya! it wasn't my intention for it to get to this level. in fact the heading of the thread questions whether his product does what it says. Not "I Hate CARR :madface:. i did search prior to even emailing him, that's how i was able to include my helpful little link.

you are right tho, these things get blown way out of proportion, especially on the InterWeB.. people bash and say things they wouldn't ordinarily say to people in person. and others unabashedly "back" others, and it cascades into something it was never meant to be.

yeah i know all about the oilpan issues..thanks for the headsup.. take a look at the pics of my mk1 rabbit.it's the first pic on the first page http://www.hostdub.com/nygti. oilpan was less than an inch off the ground.. never popped it. all my cars are too low for NY, but i get around..

i'd like to publicly apologize to CARR for quoting a private conversation.

-errol-

[Fidhle007]

Oil pan No. 4 went in a few weeks ago...

[whakiewes]

i hear ya! it wasn't my intention for it to get to this level. in fact the heading of the thread questions whether his product does what it says. Not "I Hate CARR :madface:. i did search prior to even emailing him, that's how i was able to include my helpful little link.

you are right tho, these things get blown way out of proportion, especially on the InterWeB.. people bash and say things they wouldn't ordinarily say to people in person. and others unabashedly "back" others, and it cascades into something it was never meant to be.

yeah i know all about the oilpan issues..thanks for the headsup.. take a look at the pics of my mk1 rabbit.it's the first pic on the first page http://www.hostdub.com/nygti. oilpan was less than an inch off the ground.. never popped it. all my cars are too low for NY, but i get around..

i'd like to publicly apologize to CARR for quoting a private conversation.

-errol-

You want objective, I can give you objective. CARR Industries in Greensboro has been around for quite some time, probably longer than most people on this board have been alive. From a stock 325i to HR Race with no spring pads, you will see about 3" of drop. Going from a 325is and leaving spring pads in, you may only see 1-1.5".

I have spent a ton of time on suspensions. Going low is the worst thing I hear on a daily basis. Its the furthest thing from what is right and its no wonder that kids keep stuffing E30's into walls. The Cosmos coilovers are garbage. They are taiwanese made springs with shotty aluminum coil overs sleeves. While they may be listed at 460/520lbs, the manufacturing tolerances are more than +/- 5%, so your looking at anywhere from 440 to 480 roughly. You bought a BMW for its handling aspect, and your attempting to throw it out of the window. Eibach springs are made with in a >1% manufacturing tolerance, as is H&R. Springs are not just springs...they are not all the same.

Second is about shocks. Koni S/A's (single adjustable, not shortened) are great aftermarket replacement shocks. They were never made for lowered cars and they were never made to be run with linear rate springs. Bilstein Sports and Koni S/A's are sold as sport aftermarket alternatives to OEM shocks, something most people miss when purchasing suspensions. Do they have the valving to work with higher rate springs; sure, considering the amount the springs change or lack there of. Linear rate springs function in a different way than progressive rate though, which is how replacement shocks are valved. Their valving dyno's use progressive valving, so as the shock gets lower it stiffens (minutely on Bilsteins/Koni's). When you switch to linear rate springs, you change the entire overall dynamics of how a shock works. Valving has to be adjusted to linear, digressive, or more modern are a combination of linear compression and digressive rebound. This has always been my largest complaint of the Ground-Control Track/Street setup. Its a marketing gizmo from the beginning. Custom shocks need to be institued such as 8611 double adjustable Koni inserts, or full out coilovers such as 2812/17's.

Will your setup work - of course. Its going to lower the center mass which improves the dynamics of a car. Your car is going to look better, and its probably going to 'feel' stiff. Its going to be bouncy and go infinate probably anytime you are deep onto the brakes and hit a bump. Is there a good setup for the E30? The only two I have ever felt that are balanced are HR Sports/Bilstein or the Turner J-Stock setup. Every other setup I have driven or ridden on is way undershocked for use, including Bilstein Sports/IE3/HR Race or even Koni's. The Koni's have adjustable rebound...great, but they don't have enough compression to do much more than HR Sports. Built coilovers such as HR, KW, or other high-end name brands are matched and dyno-tuned for the specific car. I would venture to say that the Ground-Control street/track setup has never seen time on a shock dyno.

Wes

[JRKOUPE]

set ups....

Wes.....


Great response...Great info.... (Ive spoken to Carmine over at Carr.......great, in the know e 30 fellow).... But I'm not sure its all 100 % correct in regards to Koni/GC..it could be though! I run Koni SA's from GC w/ HR race on my 90 2.5i. Its used as a track car basicaly As you know, thousands of SA's have been sold w/ the GC kits.....e36's, e 30's m and non M, etc. I would say the reviews are strong overall!!!!! And I do believe my frt inserts are shortened( a spacer was needed). In theory you make sense........but I find it hard to believe GC could get away w/ such a faux pas.......marketing?...perhaps; but the kit sure seems to be a worthy affordable c/o set up.

[whakiewes]

Joel,

I have been in many public debates with Ground-Control on various other forums. Ground-Control S/A's are shortened, but standard over the counter S/A's are not. My point was not that Ground-Control products were garbage; I don't think they are. They use top end springs, adjusters, and sleeves. They made a good decision to go with Koni struts over other brands. My point was that the kit is a fob of parts with nothing more than real world 'car feels better' testing. Companies like H&R, Koni, and KW spend months-years testing and retesting suspension setups with top of the line telemetry data to make sure they are correct. Shock valving is 1000X more important than spring rates when it comes to the handling of a car; and this is the aspect most over looked when upgrading. I understand why. The cost of purchasing the correct shocks and/or finding a shock dyno that will allow individual use is hard. The majority of E30's are bouncy and rip oil pans because they are incorrectly setup. My basic complaint with Ground-Control is that they allow the user to pick spring rates, but give 'standard' shocks. The Advanced Design units are quality pieces, and are a much better choice.

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/shock_absorber_shock_dyno/

http://www.ohlins.com/Portals/0/documents/manuals/07450-01.pdf

Good readings about how shocks are made, how they effect handling, and why you pay so much for them.

Wes

[JRKOUPE]

Joel,

I have been in many public debates with Ground-Control on various other forums. Ground-Control S/A's are shortened, but standard over the counter S/A's are not. My point was not that Ground-Control products were garbage; I don't think they are. They use top end springs, adjusters, and sleeves. They made a good decision to go with Koni struts over other brands. My point was that the kit is a fob of parts with nothing more than real world 'car feels better' testing. Companies like H&R, Koni, and KW spend months-years testing and retesting suspension setups with top of the line telemetry data to make sure they are correct. Shock valving is 1000X more important than spring rates when it comes to the handling of a car; and this is the aspect most over looked when upgrading. I understand why. The cost of purchasing the correct shocks and/or finding a shock dyno that will allow individual use is hard. The majority of E30's are bouncy and rip oil pans because they are incorrectly setup. My basic complaint with Ground-Control is that they allow the user to pick spring rates, but give 'standard' shocks. The Advanced Design units are quality pieces, and are a much better choice.

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles/shock_absorber_shock_dyno/

http://www.ohlins.com/Portals/0/documents/manuals/07450-01.pdf

Good readings about how shocks are made, how they effect handling, and why you pay so much for them.

Wes

I understand your points 100%. And its clear you have a background that warrants respect. You have prompted me to look into the matter further.........thanks.

[JGood]

The owner of this site is a very well respected and knowledgeable individual:

http://e30m3performance.com/tech_articles/susp-tech/shock_dyno/front_shock.htm

"Jay Morris at Ground Control has had the Koni shocks apart and is familiar with the way that the damping adjustment is actually accomplished. Based on his knowledge of the internals of the Koni SA's he was able so suggest baseline settings that I could use to match my intended spring rates. He was remarkable accurate because the car handled like a dream on its first outing at Laguna Seca."

[errol]

You want objective, I can give you objective.
Wes

haha. your post didn't seem too impartial. informative, yes. But i don't think "crappy" is an objective term.. i'm partially kidding man. i do appreciate your educated response, even if it wasn't really aimed at me. seems as tho you have an overall beef with people who lower their car beyond that theoretical perfect ride-height threshold. trust me, i'm not arguing that age-old slammed vs. parallel control arm argument. i've been doing this too long man. i was just new to e30's..

btw, i thought i mentioned that i do have the shortened s/a's, and the rears are top adjust.

so far so good with the cosmos. a little soft i find tho, but that's subjective.

i spoke to GC, and they offer a 5.5" rear spring( that isn't on their website unless you search 5.5") at a decent rate that i might get into..

my car is not bouncy at all BTW. this aint no cut spring/stock shock setup..


cheers..

-errol-

oh and here's a kinda recent pic. the rear bumper has since been tucked, and the wheels have been refinished..

[Aptyp]

ASUBimmer is being a cock-rider for Carr Industries. Here's the scoop.

Carr is probably the best place to go for parts and help in Triad NC area, and that is 100% true. The person who responded to you is Carmine, and he one of the most interesting characters to hit BMW world, to say nicely.

When he is nice, he's the only guy you want to go to, when he's mean you want to hit him. I do love stereotypes of people, and Carmine fits his perfectly, he is a NY Italian.

Errol, the best you can do is call Carr Industries and talk tot hem, every one there is very reasonable, and I'm sure it was some kind of misunderstanding. Carmine helps e30 guys like nobody else, he gives every one good prices. He even "raced" an e30 few years back.

They do carry everything from IE, and lately they've had a lot more stuff, even their own brand stuff.

Again, I do not stand with Charlie on his statement, you can't support Carmine's actions 100% of the time, but there had to be a reason, find out what it is before condemning guys who do their best to help guys like us.

[ditchdigger]

I bought my IE3's from Carr industries and the service was fantastic. Super communicative and even tossed in a free gift after I had to wait because they were backordered.