Camber Plates: Vorshlag vs GC

[freeski27]

wow, well. I guess I know what plates I'll be getting.

Ill keep you guys guessing.

(I read everything.)

[87e30]

It would be cool if there was a third party review of these products so we don't have to sift through the possible bias coming from each side of this conversation.

As is this is a pretty stupid way to get information.

[Miasma]

Interesting...

[Aptyp]

that test-video looks like bullshit, quite honestly. I heard how many clicks you had on that press, and if it's a 6-ton press, then I bet coil-over threads would strip way ahead of plate failure.

Also, how do you not record any pressures and just video tape it. I can do exact same test on my press and show results the other way. Very unscientific, and very bitter come back for Ground Control.

First of all, Vorshlags plates are shorter stack height, how did you get them up to the same height in the press. Secondly, if those bolts on GC plate didn't bottom out, could we expect the same result from GC plates?


Personally, I like GC plates, but after seeing how unscientific their testing and R&D are, I will never buy from them again. I can Mickey Mouse shit in my garage just as well.

[BraveUlysses]

If you're willing to put that video of the Vorshlag plates breaking in your test session, why not record the force applied in the actual video or at least be willing to state it publicly instead of asking people to PM you for details?

[Miasma]

Weak, Someone should have quoted what got edited out....

[Stephen]

Havent seen anything about strut travel and ride height. Thats what i want most out of plates, im low on travel

[Massive Lee]

Girls. Let's cheer.

Imagine if Steve Job (Apple) and Bill Gates (Microsoft) had the same personal involvement in their products and used the same language on forums... It wouldn't be good for either products.

I may be known here for sometimes being hot blooded when it comes to social or political causes. And I don't fear expressing my points of view. But one thing I learned was to weight my words when it came to comparing Massive's products and the competition. Or do it with humour... ;) Each product may have an advantage over the other. And each one may be for a different crowd. That's how far I'll try to go. And at the end, it is the buyer who has better information and will be satisfied with a product that better suits his needs...

BTW I run GC camber plates but like very much the top plates of the new Vorschlag units with countersunk screws. That's exactly what I had designed a couple years back. And no. I don't think anyone "copied" me. Just the same solution to the same problem. ;)

Havent seen anything about strut travel and ride height. Thats what i want most out of plates, im low on travel

Stephen, once you shorten the struts, you won't mind plus or minus half an inch in stack height.

[Hellabad]

that test-video looks like bullshit, quite honestly. I heard how many clicks you had on that press, and if it's a 6-ton press, then I bet coil-over threads would strip way ahead of plate failure.

Not true. The "clicks" are from taking up slack, and then the vorshlag plate started bending right away, then it broke. After it broke, the guy kept pumping just to see what would happen. You have no way of knowing this was the last matchup, and every single demonstration used the SAME GC bearing carrier. Seriously. After we broke the last vorshlag, we tried to break the GC too. All it did was tilt the teeter totter further over to the side.

Also, how do you not record any pressures and just video tape it. I can do exact same test on my press and show results the other way.

Actually I don't think you can. You are welcome to try, and I have retained every single part here plus second footage from a second camera just to solve any arguments.

Very unscientific, and very bitter come back for Ground Control.

I disagree. This wasn't a test per se. Otherwise would have conducted it like the test style that you are probably thinking of. This maybe could be termed a battle, or a face-off. We spent a lot of time constructing a perfectly matched teeter-totter that would break whichever camber plate was weakest. That was our only goal, and the dramatic fractures were just gravy.

First of all, Vorshlags plates are shorter stack height, how did you get them up to the same height in the press. Secondly, if those bolts on GC plate didn't bottom out, could we expect the same result from GC plates?

The opposite is true. If you look at the beginning of the video, the GC plate is shorter and is shimmed up underneath with a steel plate. This was done by measuring with a caliper.

Personally, I like GC plates, but after seeing how unscientific their testing and R&D are, I will never buy from them again. I can Mickey Mouse shit in my garage just as well.

Again I disagree, we already did all of the testing and RD before we ever sold the first set many years ago. This is a demonstration that when somebody says their bearings are bigger or stronger or whatever, that maybe somebody needs to step up show what the truth really is.

And thats the bottom line.

[Hellabad]

If you're willing to put that video of the Vorshlag plates breaking in your test session, why not record the force applied in the actual video or at least be willing to state it publicly instead of asking people to PM you for details?

I have been threatened to not post that info, or presumably any info.

And personally, what difference does *a* number really mean? If there is this much debate with no quantity, then what would happen if I said "8"? If I said "8" than somebody would say I was wrong and it should be "9" or "7.2566447"

I have a lot of people emailing me for a number, and its not a big deal.

This is how I think of it. Somebody says they have the best tug of war team in the world. Then there was a tug of war. One team pulled the other team into the sandpit. Nobody asks how much force it took. One team was clearly stronger than the other.

[Hellabad]

It would be cool if there was a third party review of these products so we don't have to sift through the possible bias coming from each side of this conversation.

As is this is a pretty stupid way to get information.

I agree about the bias part. But GC went to extreme measures to ensure a fair comparison.

Both sides of the jig are identical. The bolts and washers on each side of the jig are the ones included with their respective camber plate.

After assembling with identical BMW strut towers on each side, we found the exact center of each camber plate.

Then the upper bar was marked for the exact midpoint between the centers, and then the press was carefully lined up to press exactly on the midpoint.

If you look at the start of the video you can even see that were careful to adjust each plate to the same camber so there was no ambiguity or dispute.

Then we just started pressing. All of the parts are here, from several comparisons, and if you ever want to see them just make an appointment and stop by.

Jay from GC

[Hellabad]

Do the Vorshlag plates lower your car about a 1/2 inch like the ground controls?

I'm sure both of them are more than half inch.

I know exact numbers, but I don't have them right now.


Jay

[TwoJ's]

Wow. As was already stated, that video indeed is unscientific and meaningless. Why don't you use some proper machines and instrumentation to test them? How about a tensile/compressive tester? Load cells? Dial indicators to measure deflection? Maybe just ANY DATA at all?

[yberther]

^dude, do you read?

he just stated that it was only for demonstration?

You don't think a company with either GC or Vorshlag's reputation wouldn't do real testing? And record data?
Clearly they do.

[Massive Lee]

^dude, do you read?

he just stated that it was only for demonstration?

You don't think a company with either GC or Vorshlag's reputation wouldn't do real testing? And record data?
Clearly they do.

You're being ironic, right? The intention of the video was clearly not for "entertainment only". Especially when the poster asked how unscientific that was. I totally understand the will to push one's product over a competitor's. But there are some liabilities attached. The video that was shown clearly intends to destroy Vorschlag's reputation. But with very unconclusive/unscientific ways. This is not just comparative advertizing (aka Coke vs Pepsi).

Anyway, I still believe that both products are great. And both offer great solutions to steering/suspension problems.