Camber Plates: Vorshlag vs GC

[yberther]

The ones that have the rear bolts sunken in (forgot the technical term)

counter sink.

Here is an example:

http://www.camberplate.com/test/GCFinalCPIIa.htm

Jay Morris

sweet video. No actual numbers though, just a hydraulic press till they break?

Any other "specs" on the new plates? Or can you confirm anything (like stack height or how adjustable they are)?

[z31maniac]

The short answer is "NO".

Vorshlag has publicly stated on bf.c that they WILL copy any GC designs that are not patented, and they have been true to their word. Many vorshlag products are not just a copy, but an exact duplicate of a part designed by and made by GC.

The new design is absolutely beautiful in my opinion, and has proven to be very strong, in addition to the incredible ranges of adjustment.

Here is an example:

http://www.camberplate.com/test/GCFinalCPIIa.htm

Jay Morris

You know I'm a huge supporter of your stuff, it's on both my E30s.

Do you have a link to where Terry or any of his employees said that in on bfc? If so, I'd like to read it, because if true I'd like to never give them any business again.

What was the amount of pressure the plate broke under? It may have failed before yours but if it was 5x the load the plate would ever see even under race use, it doesn't seem like a valid comparison.

[Hellabad]

...............

1) File for Patent protection on your idea. You'll have exclusive rights to your invention for 20 years. This will give you the protection you so obviously crave, assuming that you've got an idea that qualifies.

2) Assume that you can't get a patent on your idea. Go to market anyway. For a period of time, you'll be the exclusive supplier of your widget and life will be good. Soon though, other companies may decide to sell the same thing you are marketing, either identical or slightly different. They may sell it cheaper or make a slightly better version of it. That's known as competition. It's called "The Product Lifecycle" and it's Business 101. Read up.


snip.....Here’s a hint Jay, the real world operates on options 1) and 2).

MotorForce rear trailing arm washers will be on the website this weekend. The photographs will be on there that you were looking for earlier in this thread.
They aren't gonna cost $60 either.....

There is an entire bitch session there in the thread, which I pmed you the link. Ok, I can see the factual points (I have patents) but its an ethical choice the way I see it.

[Hellabad]

What was the amount of pressure the plate broke under? It may have failed before yours but if it was 5x the load the plate would ever see even under race use, it doesn't seem like a valid comparison.

Everybody asks this. I don't want to say, because then that could be open to further misinterpretation. Lets just say that the bearing carrier broke at less than the -claimed- load rating of the bearing.

[whiltebeitel]

There is an entire bitch session there in the thread, which I pmed you the link. Ok, I can see the factual points (I have patents) but its an ethical choice the way I see it.

I wanted to check that thread out. Found it.

[fiftytakedowns]

Do the Vorshlag plates lower your car about a 1/2 inch like the ground controls?

[Hellabad]

I wanted to check that thread out. Found it.

This link is easier to read.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=289821

And in case you think I was being harsh or out of line (which you may), there are some personal attacks that were edited out, here is a quote from the moderator:

I'm not here to take sides. I'm not going to comment on the morality or the ethics involved in copying. And I've edited the snide comments out of the quoted post (edit: by vorshlag co-owner).

Additionally I have just been told that when that was written, more than one person in that thread were "owners" of motor-force /vorshlag, and are not anymore. I did not know until just today that two and maybe three of the people involved in that thread were (or are?) secret owners of vorshlag.

Supposedly "freezing texan" and "john in houston", and maybe "jmott" worked for or owned vorshlag. No wonder they were so harsh!
Not sayin its true.... but thats what I've been told and now a lot of things make sense.


Jay Morris from Ground Control

[whiltebeitel]

John is a buddy of the Motorforce/Vorshlag guys, does some testing for them. They went to college together, I'm guessing freezing texan is Brian M. No idea of jmott's connections.

As far as being harsh, no. You are passionate about your work.

Oh, and thanks for the "normal" BF.c link, Google only shows the archives.

[Hellabad]

John is a buddy of the Motorforce/Vorshlag guys, does some testing for them. They went to college together, I'm guessing freezing texan is Brian M. No idea of jmott's connections.

As far as being harsh, no. You are passionate about your work.

Actually that whole thing is a bit embarassing, but since you found that link, I had to step up and put the scene in context as best as I could.

[whiltebeitel]

Yeah, I assumed most would pick up on that. I generally prefer to read whole threads as opposed to edited quotes, but I've tended to have more time to kill recently, so that is a factor.

[Massive Lee]

Hmmm... If indeed some representants of Vorschlag publicly claimed they would copy any non-patented design from GC, then it shows very low ethic.

As for the GC/Vorschlag plate test seen on the video, there's a lot of information missing. And the protocole is pretty... strange. Jay, if the spherical bearing was rated at a milion tons and that the plated failed at 10% that value, it still remains proper.

Anyway, Jay, I welcome the new designs for your camber plates with the recessed bolts. Anything else never made sense as it clearly limited adjustments. I had drafts, two years ago, for recessed upper plates to replace your flat plates. In fact, nothing should portrude above the upper plate, except for the shock stem... It may add 1/4" stack height but it offers may more adjustment.

[Hellabad]

As for the GC/Vorschlag plate test seen on the video, there's a lot of information missing.

Ask me or PM me if you have a question, and I will answer if I can.

And the protocol is pretty... strange.

I don't understand this, it seems clear to me, but I am on the inside looking in. Can you elaborate? PM that too if you want.

Jay

[Massive Lee]

Hi Jay

I still like your products very much. Don't worry.

But to show a plate design is defective, I guess it must be submitted to different documented levels of pressure. One plate after another (GC vs Vorschlag), so that the same pressure is applied equally, not on a tandem device. And the test shall be repeated on a few units to prove a flaw in design, and not a flaw in material on one unit.

Looking at the video, one or two bolts from the GC plate are contacting the base/table, maybe they are affecting the results. This test can be revealing of a design flaw if properly conducted.

[Fair!]

Vorshlag has publicly stated on bf.c that they WILL copy any GC designs that are not patented, and they have been true to their word. Many vorshlag products are not just a copy, but an exact duplicate of a part designed by and made by GC.

Jay, that statement is so utterly preposterous (and libelous, and untrue) that I am at a loss for words.

edit: After re-reading my post the next morning I realized it had too much brutal honesty and would simply have my company's name dragged through the same mud as GC's. I am not going to stoop to that level.

[Hellabad]

bullshit. in about 20 places. including the stupid "competitor" bearing pic you drag out that is the definition of libel.