Any more electric e30 conversions?

[ZeKahr]

With this thread back at the top and receiving some good posts, I'm going to chip in. It's not about the "maturity" of E30 owners or the money, it's about what an E30 is. An E30 is a cool old driver's car. It is relatively light and in its best iterations has an I6 that sounds good (if you don't put a tinny sounding exhaust on it), a crappy shifting manual transmission, and relatively good handling. To EV swap an E30 ruins everything it is good at aside from looking good and only stands to gain one thing: acceleration. The collector wants an original car so the value is ruined. The driving enthusiast wants a light, engaging car that is fun in the twisties and the weight of an EV swap and loss of manual gearbox ruins that. People who want a fast car find themselves having to leave no stone unturned since the chassis is just not suited for a lot of power and can't fit much tire without butchering the car. Only the EV lover or drag racer will be pleased at the result of an EV swap and there are better choices if you just want sheer acceleration so the pool of people who want to do it is pretty small. As an aside, any potential low maintenance level of an EV is offset by the time and money spent swapping the car in the first place. If you're just in it to do something because you can and because you want to, like me putting a built 3L and an S366 in my E34 just to have a sleeper DD, all bets are off, but that narrows the appeal to special people.

My opinion, when concerning American market models, is that the whole "E30 = driver's car" ethos applies only to the late models (specifically the 325i(s) and the 318is). They got the engines that are desirable to driving enthusiasts (M20B25 and M42B18) and the plastic bumpers look sporty yet cheap compared to the chrome bumpers on the early models. Those might as well be left the way they are (or 24V swapped, I guess).

Now imagine swapping an EV motor into something like this black and chrome 1986 Eta. From a superficial looks perspective, nothing about this car screams "driver's car" to me. It looks like an old-school businessman's or Wall St banker's car; these days it's more of a head-turner in the right colors (Schwarz with chrome trim and a wine red interior) that you can drive to Ruth's Chris or Wolfgang's. The whole ethos of the Eta was to be an economical efficient (it's in the fucking name) car that looked snooty and expensive (a 1986 Toyota Corolla in comparison looks cheap and pedestrian compared to this Eta). They were never intended to be driven fast or hard, the only issue was that they were high-maintenance (timing belt every 60k miles, valve adjustments every 15k miles) despite being "economical". An small electric motor allowing for 60-70 MPH cruising and a small battery giving a max 50-60 miles of range would be cost efficient enough in a few years to turn this into a low-maintenance head-turning machine. The electric motor will be 3-4 times as efficient as the Eta engine (especially at 20 MPH in the city where everyone can really stare at you) are require virtually no maintenance. Something like this will have mass appeal to a group of people that are neither collectors nor driving enthusiasts; I'm talking about the Instagram flexxer/clout chaser/look at me crowd. Hemmels already did what I'm talking about with a Mercedes Pagoda, although they screwed up by giving it too much horsepower for a car that's all about "going zero to 60 mph as slowly as possible, so everyone can see you in it"

[varg]

With this thread back at the top and receiving some good posts, I'm going to chip in. It's not about the "maturity" of E30 owners or the money, it's about what an E30 is. An E30 is a cool old driver's car. It is relatively light and in its best iterations has an I6 that sounds good (if you don't put a tinny sounding exhaust on it), a crappy shifting manual transmission, and relatively good handling. To EV swap an E30 ruins everything it is good at aside from looking good and only stands to gain one thing: acceleration. The collector wants an original car so the value is ruined. The driving enthusiast wants a light, engaging car that is fun in the twisties and the weight of an EV swap and loss of manual gearbox ruins that. People who want a fast car find themselves having to leave no stone unturned since the chassis is just not suited for a lot of power and can't fit much tire without butchering the car. Only the EV lover or drag racer will be pleased at the result of an EV swap and there are better choices if you just want sheer acceleration so the pool of people who want to do it is pretty small. As an aside, any potential low maintenance level of an EV is offset by the time and money spent swapping the car in the first place. If you're just in it to do something because you can and because you want to, like me putting a built 3L and an S366 in my E34 just to have a sleeper DD, all bets are off, but that narrows the appeal to special people.

[AceAndrew777]

Thanks for the overview of converting ICE to EV. Much of the comments apply to most conversions but it seems BMW E30 is chose rarely. Look at other models such as VW bug, Ghia, Porsche, minis, etc. There are many examples, all overcoming the issues you describe. Just was wondering why this model is so rare?

Drastic changes in the original vehicle's performance, handling, "soul" happen to all conversions yet Porsche get electrified, VW bus get converted; oen can say the same about the major changes.

Simple Answer: Money.

The Porsche/02 market is willing to spend more money than the e30 market (generally), so a small handful of enterprising businesses have tried to create conversions to cater to those with said car and the requisite money. The standard marketing campaigns were then created and a small handful of customers appeared. However, you're now in the phase where the initial customer pool has gone through and there isn't the staying power they had hoped.

Another analogy is a fine watch. A mechanical watch is a complicated beautiful thing that holds value BECAUSE of the soul-like quality inherent to complicated mechanical things. A battery-powered watch may be much simpler and infinitely more dependable, but it will never hold the same appeal.

[82eye]

Yeah, but you don't do trips for that job in your E30 do you? The EV converted E30 thing would work for a weekend car that's not driven far (or for a short distance-only car that can be a secondary car).

it would run a few trips yes. a converted car wouldn't have a manual kind of killing the point.

[ZeKahr]

i work as a lighting tech for a company doing band and show production. 200 - 300 km at a single shot is an avg trip. there is no recharging options in about 100% of the communities we work in at present. an electric car is easily a decade or more away in practical terms.

edit: the only thing that somewhat appeals is the power in electric. even then it's the same as driving an auto cvt. no real fun involved. i don't see any real enthusiasts driving them now. just a bunch of rich fuck ups that are more into a cell phone than being a driver.

Yeah, but you don't do trips for that job in your E30 do you? The EV converted E30 thing would work for a weekend car that's not driven far (or for a short distance-only car that can be a secondary car).

[82eye]

You can afford an EV30 if you're willing to get creative, have low standards, and cheap out on parts (i.e. use forklift DC motors, low-amp controllers, lead acid batteries). This guy converted a Geo Metro to electric drive 15 years ago for under 1000 CAD. Granted, it's not fast nor does it go far. But the Need for Speed (pun intended) turns into a never-ending black hole. As for range, most people don't drive more than 100 miles throughout most of the year. Most trips are under 60 miles too. So you don't need a lot of battery for tooling around town.

But if you already re-did an M20 (which I can't imagine is cheap), then yeah makes sense for you and your dad to enjoy that while you guys still can. Sure the nice ICE cars will become expensive museum pieces when EVs take over and gas pumps disappear, but even at that point I'm still going to try to keep an E30 (or maybe an E21) on the road whether I'm driving it at 25 MPH or at 75 MPH, whether it goes 30 miles or 300 miles before needing to refuel, or whether its powered by an ICE or an electric motor. These cars weren't meant to sit in a museum, they were meant to be driven.

i work as a lighting tech for a company doing band and show production. 200 - 300 km at a single shot is an avg trip. there is no recharging options in about 100% of the communities we work in at present. an electric car is easily a decade or more away in practical terms.

edit: the only thing that somewhat appeals is the power in electric. even then it's the same as driving an auto cvt. no real fun involved. i don't see any real enthusiasts driving them now. just a bunch of rich fuck ups that are more into a cell phone than being a driver.

[ZeKahr]

i doubt i'm gonna ever be able to afford it. the entry cost for anything ev pretty much rules out the middle class. anyone under that like myself won't have a hope.

more importantly i just refreshed my m20, it's the last thing my pops and i will ever have worked on together. i'd never live with myself if i threw that away. on top of it mechanically decent ice cars that remain essentially stock or oem + will only go up in value as museum pieces or oddities. not that we'll be driving them much when there's no more fuel besides low octane available.

You can afford an EV30 if you're willing to get creative, have low standards, and cheap out on parts (i.e. use forklift DC motors, low-amp controllers, lead acid batteries). This guy converted a Geo Metro to electric drive 15 years ago for under 1000 CAD. Granted, it's not fast nor does it go far. But the Need for Speed (pun intended) turns into a never-ending black hole. As for range, most people don't drive more than 100 miles throughout most of the year. Most trips are under 60 miles too. So you don't need a lot of battery for tooling around town.

But if you already re-did an M20 (which I can't imagine is cheap), then yeah makes sense for you and your dad to enjoy that while you guys still can. Sure the nice ICE cars will become expensive museum pieces when EVs take over and gas pumps disappear, but even at that point I'm still going to try to keep an E30 (or maybe an E21) on the road whether I'm driving it at 25 MPH or at 75 MPH, whether it goes 30 miles or 300 miles before needing to refuel, or whether its powered by an ICE or an electric motor. These cars weren't meant to sit in a museum, they were meant to be driven.

[82eye]

Once EVs as an industry get fleshed out and as the E30 community starts to mature (it has a lot of maturing to do compared to the 02 community, which is a lot more open to EV conversions), I’m sure you’ll see more people convert E30s to electric power

i doubt i'm gonna ever be able to afford it. the entry cost for anything ev pretty much rules out the middle class. anyone under that like myself won't have a hope.

more importantly i just refreshed my m20, it's the last thing my pops and i will ever have worked on together. i'd never live with myself if i threw that away. on top of it mechanically decent ice cars that remain essentially stock or oem + will only go up in value as museum pieces or oddities. not that we'll be driving them much when there's no more fuel besides low octane available.

[ZeKahr]

Thanks for the overview of converting ICE to EV. Much of the comments apply to most conversions but it seems BMW E30 is chose rarely. Look at other models such as VW bug, Ghia, Porsche, minis, etc. There are many examples, all overcoming the issues you describe. Just was wondering why this model is so rare?

Well, Porsche and VW bug are rear engine rear wheel drive, which supposedly makes them easy conversion candidates (don’t know why that is, you would have to ask a seasoned EV converter as to why that is). Dunno about Ghia and Mini though. Maybe its just happenstance that conversion kits emerged for those cars first. Once EVs as an industry get fleshed out and as the E30 community starts to mature (it has a lot of maturing to do compared to the 02 community, which is a lot more open to EV conversions), I’m sure you’ll see more people convert E30s to electric power

[roguetoaster]

^
An E30 is a compact RWD sedan layout with fairly limited room for large battery mass. There's also no flat floor, and the suspension setup isn't really intended to take another however many pounds and still work well.

[windtrader]

Thanks for the overview of converting ICE to EV. Much of the comments apply to most conversions but it seems BMW E30 is chose rarely. Look at other models such as VW bug, Ghia, Porsche, minis, etc. There are many examples, all overcoming the issues you describe. Just was wondering why this model is so rare?

Drastic changes in the original vehicle's performance, handling, "soul" happen to all conversions yet Porsche get electrified, VW bus get converted; oen can say the same about the major changes.

[ZeKahr]

Any new E30 conversion projects? I find so few it makes me wonder if there is something about the E30 that presents unique challenges? All conversions cost money and take a fairly seasoned DIY mechanic, electrician, etc. to do it but my research turned up around a half dozen or so.

EV conversions (properly done ones that can provide ample range) right now are pretty expensive (about as much as a restoration on a gas-powered E30 if you have one done by a shop). Batteries really drive up conversion costs if you want ample range at highway speeds (>100 miles at 60-70 MPH on the highway) while keeping weight low (Lithium ion batteries weigh a LOT less than old lead-acid batteries, they're much more energy dense too, but also cost a lot more). A good AC motor and controller aren't cheap either. You also need to fabricate a battery box, mounting for the box, and a motor mount for the transmission (basically, you're putting EV parts into a chassis that was designed for a gas drivetrain, which drives up costs even further). Another thing is that fast-charging infrastructure needs to be more present in order to convince more people to convert old gas cars to EVs.

The only way you can do an economical EV conversion on an E30 (or any old BMW) today is if you turn it into a (good looking) city car with limited range (EV tech works most efficiently in stop and go city traffic and city speeds).

Give it a decade or two for batteries to improve and get cheaper, and more fast charging sites to be present, then you'll gradually see more EV-powered E30s (as well as conversions on other classic BMWs).

You're wondering in the wrong direction. It's just the e30 represents a great drivers car. To take the soul of it out and replace it with an electric motor isn't something that has very much appeal.

I get that there are people desperately trying to make the electric swaps cool... but to me it just feels like the misguided flavor of the week.

Wouldn't mind a tesla for a dd.

Best of luck.

Sure they're great driver's cars, but not everyone likes the E30 for its driving dynamics; some people just like the old-school business sedan looks of these cars and do not give a rat's ass about driving dynamics.

And Teslas are ugly frog-faced cars. Tesla's tech is great, but it sucks that it has to go in to such a hideous-looking vehicle.

EV swaps have tangible benefits (don't need to do regular maintenance on an EV powertrain like you do a gas one, lot less things to go wrong, less brake dust due to regen braking). Now you can focus on maintaining other parts of the car that deteriorate over time, like bodywork, interior, creature comforts like AC, etc instead of dumping money into a 35 year old prime mover. There's roughly 20,000-25,000 different parts on a gas-powered E30, and keeping them all nice is an expensive chore. If I can eliminate 7,000-10,000 of those parts with an EV conversion, then that will make living with the car a lot easier.

To make an analogy for this, I’ll use the car audio realm. When we transitioned from cassette deck to Bluetooth audio, no one cared about the loss of “soul” (the sounds of the cassette playing, the loading/eject sounds of the deck) because BT is so much more reliable and convenient than the ancient cassette deck which its multiple failure points. I’ve had 5 BMW tape decks and every single one of them was broken (with few resources online on how to fix the various problems with the cassette mechanism). I just decided to throw a Cantaloupe Radio BT board in my CM5908 and call it a day.

[AceAndrew777]

I find so few it makes me wonder if there is something about the E30 that presents unique challenges?

You're wondering in the wrong direction. It's just the e30 represents a great drivers car. To take the soul of it out and replace it with an electric motor isn't something that has very much appeal.

I get that there are people desperately trying to make the electric swaps cool... but to me it just feels like the misguided flavor of the week.

Wouldn't mind a tesla for a dd.

Best of luck.

[windtrader]

Any new E30 conversion projects? I find so few it makes me wonder if there is something about the E30 that presents unique challenges? All conversions cost money and take a fairly seasoned DIY mechanic, electrician, etc. to do it but my research turned up around a half dozen or so.

[It's Soda Not Pop]

Just like any other powertrain, swaps can just be cool. No ones saying you have to replace your ICE e30 with an EVe30 but if you added an EV to the stable as a toy (not a commuter) why not make it a chassis you enjoy?

fair enough. I guess I'm just not interested in EV's.