Cosworth Benz (top gear inspired)

[Ryan...]

^^ Thats what I'm finding out more everyday :(
I really appreciate your insight, its looking like I may end up getting a standard 190e, swapping in a manual tranny, and then going with an engine swap if I feel the need. Once I finally get on 190rev I'll be able to continue my research more fully.

[europeanplates]

As you can see in the build thread Levent posted, I bought one. I've been a huge fan of these things for years. I started looking for a clean example over a year ago. It took me that much time to find a good one. I literally looked at 10 or 12 examples before buying mine. All the rest were junk.

Unfortunately, the 2.3-16 doesn't have the cult following of the M3. We only got around 2000 in the USA, and most of them are total basket cases by now. It's a car that "seems" like a good deal at first, but don't be fooled. Yes, you can get one for 5 grand instead of 15-20 grand. But there's a reason for that

Keep in mind the following:

• Parts availability is much better for the M3. Many 16v parts are NLA from the dealer.
• There are TONS of performance parts for the M3, but basically ZERO off-the-shelf upgrades for the 16v.
• If you think M-Division parts are expensive, wait until you get a price quote from Cosworth.
• It's almost impossible to find a local mechanic that knows anything about these cars.
• Whereas the M3 came with multiple throttle bodies and modern EFI, the 16v came with a single throttle and Bosch KJet. That means it's tricky to get a Cossie running right and the engine is severely restricted from the factory. Therefore, some kind of EFI upgrade is almost mandatory.
• Mercs of this era are much more complicated than BMWs and generally have all kinds of electrical gremlins that are tricky (and expensive) to sort out.
• The car is massively overweight from the factory, so performance is not going to be in the same league as an M3 unless you do something pretty drastic.
• A lot of key 16v parts (seats, door cards, etc) are not available on other models. So if you find one with, say, a bad driver's seat, you can't just swap one in from another model. You've got to use another 16v as your donor car.
• The 190e has comically small wheel arches, which makes it very difficult to fit properly sized rubber under the car. If you want to fit some modern tires in a reasonable size, you'll need to do some bodywork.

What all of this means is that finding a good 16v is very, very difficult. Once you've found a good one, you're on your own in terms of getting it to perform the way you'd like it to. Practically everything is a custom job. Even basic stuff like shocks, springs, swaybars, bushings, short-shift kits, and engine/tranny mounts becomes a challenge. Right now I've got to rebuild my LSD, but no one offers one. I can't just go to Metric Mechanic or Diffs Online or wherever. Even something this basic has turned into a custom job.

Bottom line: the Merc will absolutely NOT cost you any less than an M3. Sure, it'll cost less to buy a rough one. But by the time you get it running, you will have spent the same money. I would say you should only buy a 16v if you absolutely love these cars. For me, it's a labor of love. But if you look at it as a cheaper way to get yourself into something that's kinda' sorta' an M3, forget it...you're fooling yourself.

Emre

Well said.

My plan was to locate an old dtm/btcc car and have my way with it.. That is why I am secretly looking for one; as I do not think there are any in the US.

Ty

[Emre]

^^ Thats what I'm finding out more everyday :(
I really appreciate your insight, its looking like I may end up getting a standard 190e, swapping in a manual tranny, and then going with an engine swap if I feel the need.

If you like the 190e chassis, that's certainly a good way to go. Pick up a regular W201 with a straight body and no rust. Should be able to find an excellent example for under $3000.

Then, find yourself a wrecked C230 Kompressor. It's got basically a detuned version of the twin-cam Cosworth engine...plus a turbo...plus modern EFI. There are plenty around, and many of them came with 6-speed manual transmissions. Swap one into the 190e chassis and you should have yourself a screamer.

Just be careful. Not all C230 Kompressors were created equal: early models had a 2.3L; later ones were 1.8L.

[europeanplates]

I have owned two C230's they where supercharged!!! That would make a killer set up as that more is not bad.

Ty

[blocke]

Here is one with 43k original miles:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mercedes-Benz-190-Series-16v-2-3-1987-Mercedes-Cosworth-16v-2-3-190e-low-miles-hammer-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem4aa2dda2b1QQitemZ320560014001QQptZUSQ5fCarsQ5fTrucks#v4-44

[Emre]

I have owned two C230's they where supercharged!!!

My mistake.

Still, it would be an interesting swap.

[tjts1]

^^ Thats what I'm finding out more everyday :(
I really appreciate your insight, its looking like I may end up getting a standard 190e, swapping in a manual tranny, and then going with an engine swap if I feel the need. Once I finally get on 190rev I'll be able to continue my research more fully.

Sportline with C36 engine + Getrag swap.

http://190rev.net/forums/showthread.php?t=37518&highlight=3.6

Then, find yourself a wrecked C230 Kompressor. It's got basically a detuned version of the twin-cam Cosworth engine...plus a turbo...plus modern EFI

The M111 engine in the early C230 is a completely different animal from the 16 valve M102. Other than the bell housing bolt patter, they have nothing in common. Sort of like comparing an M42 with an S14.

[thornado327i]

There is only one car from this segment and era I would consider to leave the E30 for.

I'd get that and build the 600+HP monsters they did back in the 80's. Probably more expensive to build than any M3 and MB190 combined, but hell - we can all dream, right?

Just some random google images:

[Ryan...]

If you like the 190e chassis, that's certainly a good way to go. Pick up a regular W201 with a straight body and no rust. Should be able to find an excellent example for under $3000.

Then, find yourself a wrecked C230 Kompressor. It's got basically a detuned version of the twin-cam Cosworth engine...plus a turbo...plus modern EFI. There are plenty around, and many of them came with 6-speed manual transmissions. Swap one into the 190e chassis and you should have yourself a screamer.

Just be careful. Not all C230 Kompressors were created equal: early models had a 2.3L; later ones were 1.8L.

I'm pretty set on my next car being a 190e. I found a local-ish one for $1800 obo. He says it has no rust, interior is nice, all gauges work, little tear in the front seat, 130k miles, and best of all its a 5 speed. He said the linkage needs to be replaced because the shifter is very sloppy. I'm waiting for pics, and if it looks good I'm going to go check it out. I'll keep my eyes open for a wrecked car like you mentioned, shouldn't be too hard, and I'd have no problem waiting for a good deal to pop up, especially if the car is already a 5 speed...
I'm guessing the 2.3 is more desirable? I'd love to go research this on 190rev but I can't register, and they haven't returned my emails...

The M111 engine in the early C230 is a completely different animal from the 16 valve M102. Other than the bell housing bolt patter, they have nothing in common. Sort of like comparing an M42 with an S14.

So which of the two is better, it sounds like you're saying the 1.8 is better/more advanced? I really know almost nothing about Mercs, but the M42 vs S14 is something I understand completely :p

[tjts1]

So which of the two is better, it sounds like you're saying the 1.8 is better/more advanced? I really know almost nothing about Mercs, but the M42 vs S14 is something I understand completely :p

The original 2.3-16 valve (M102) is by far the most desirable but also hardest to find and more expensive. The 190e 2.3 8 valve (likely the one you found) is the same engine block with a different cylinder head. Depending on model year it had ~135hp. The C class came after the 190e had the M111 2.2 or 2.3 liter engine with or without supercharger. Its a more modern 16 valve engine with EFI and VVT on the intake side. It doesn't have the peak power of the M102 16 valve but its much easier on the wallet as a daily driver. You won't find this engine in the 190e unless you swap it in. They are dime a dozen if you want to go to the trouble of swapping it. The even later M271 1.8 liter engine is yet another completely different family. An easiler cheaper option would be to Megasquirt the 8 valve you already have then add a turbo.

The shifter linkage is a relatively easy fix. Just swap out some rubber bushings.

[Emre]

The M111 engine in the early C230 is a completely different animal from the 16 valve M102. Other than the bell housing bolt patter, they have nothing in common. Sort of like comparing an M42 with an S14.

I didn't know that either. I had heard that it was based on the M102.

As you can tell, I don't know much about the C230. But I'm guessing that's why the engine is many times cheaper than the M102. I still think it would be a cool budget swap.

[tjts1]

As you can tell, I don't know much about the C230. But I'm guessing that's why the engine is many times cheaper than the M102. I still think it would be a cool budget swap.

It would be an excellent swap. A lot more usable torque than the original 16 valve too.
$1300 complete with a 6 speed manual.

http://sacramento.craigslist.org/pts/1847058843.html

[Ryan...]

Sweet, good info to know!

I'm going to hopefully look at that 190e tomorrow, hope it turns out to be nice..

[tjts1]

If you're going to look at the car, a few things to keep an eye out for.
If the passeger side of the engine block is oily or wet just below the 3rd and 4th exhaust ports, chances are you're going to have to do the headgasket. Its actually a relatively easy job.
Coolant temp sensors and switches are set to turn on at 100c for the cooling fans and they also tend to fail with age. A lot of these cars run really hot (over 100c in traffic) because of a failed sensor.
Just like the E30, any rubber bits in the suspension tend to wear out with age.
The climate control is way more complicated than it has to be. Its all vacuum powered with multiple failure points
Try to find the newest, best condition example. 6 cyl/5 speeds very rare, 4 cyls manual less so.
If it has trouble with cold starts, its Kjet related. Probably the cold start injector is not firing.

http://mercedes-190.co.uk/topic/227777/1/

good luck

[Ryan...]

thanks! I won't buy it tomorrow unless my uncle comes with me, most likely I'll come back and report my findings.