New Cars, Poor Visibility

[BlackbirdM3]

Two things:

1). Rollover protection. Strengthening the pillars makes them a lot beefier.
2). Pedestrian safety. Euro NCAP requires a large amount of air space over the engine - 6" IIRC. As a result, you have to run the hood a lot higher than you otherwise would. This leads, of course, to a loss of glass. Some have coped with it better than others, but that is why cars suddenly got really high sided and flabby looking a few years ago.

Rollover protection, well, implement an internal roll cage, you don't need stupid wide pillars to implement this. Perhaps use a stronger metal, hell, break out the Reynolds 953 stainless steel (originally designed for armor plating, was then rolled into stupid thin tubing for bicycle use. The stuff is stupid strong and has a very high fatigue resistance. No, I'm not saying to use bicycle tubing here, I am saying to draw it into an appropriate thickness/shape for the use.) Also, roll over protection, last time I checked any SUV has a high center of gravity, outlaw the SUV and we have fixed part of the problem here.

Pedestrian safety? There is nothing safe about being hit by a tank. Its still going to punt you across the street. A lighter smaller car with a lower front end will do less damage. I've been hit by cars and guess what? I was the looser.

The real issue is that people need to learn how to drive. I've never hit anything either racing or on the street, I have however been taken out by idiots who can't drive. To take that one step further, I've never actually been moving when I've been hit. Hell, I was out in the Datsun last week and stopped for a little old lady to cross the street in the cross walk. Some idiot woman nearly missed me (full 4 wheel lock up no control what so ever.) by literally inches (I would have ended up in jail for aggravated assault had she hit me) It seriously took her 10 seconds to figure out that all traffic had stopped aside from her. She just had a clueless look on her face. I looked at her and simply said "Lady, learn how to drive, you suck."

Building a bigger heavier car for safeties sake is stupid. A tank hitting another tank is still going to result in serious injuries and serious amounts of property damage to what ever the mass of catastrophe happens to plow through. All that is being done is adding more inertia to the equation. Its like a train wreck, the bigger the train, the bigger the wreck.

I will not drive a new car, and I will be dammed if I'm forced to drive something I can't see out of. Trust me, I can't see out of anything currently on the market well enough to safely drive, and I'm not a short guy (6 foot 2). Hell, I have a hard enough time backing my M3 into a parking spot. I flat out couldn't back my dads Jaguar XKR into one (I drove it 4 times and it drove me so crazy I had no interest in driving it after that.)

I've been tempted to go test drive a new car, and get out tell the dealer that all his cars are crap because I can't see out of them, before I leave the dealership. :hitler: I can't convey just how much I hate every car currently being sold from any company. I cannot think of a singe new car that I would want to own for any price tag. The belt lines are all too high, the windows too small, and visibility out of them (the most important thing you need when driving a car) is complete rubbish. Auto manufacturers need to pull their heads out (as do most drivers) and build something that you can see out of, and look good. The real guilty parties need to take responsibility for their actions, if you can't drive, you shouldn't have a license. (Perhaps mandating a minimum of 60 autocrosses with no hit cones as a requirement for a drivers license. ) I'll be honest, you will never see me driving anything built after 1991.

Will

[Holland]

Will, while I don't quite share your vendetta against newer cars, you make valid points. Still I believe one of the largest factors in newer cars is Safety through prevention of lawsuit.

Race cars are very safe, yet lack pretty much everything a passenger car does. Things like steeper, further windshields in case of not wearing seatbelts. Taller noses for pedestrian protection, and pedestrian airbags. These are liability safety features. These are imo, lawsuit safety features.

We live in one of the only countries where one can get sued for almost anything.

I think smaller, more simple cars are the way to go, I think everyone on this board will agree so. I think cars are becoming that again. Engines are getting smaller as fuel prices rise again. I hope cars will soon follow. Too bad for styling though.

[Threehz]

Will, you are my fucking hero. When I come up to Napa you gotta show me your collection, especially the Datsun!

I feel like the BRZ is one of the few new cars I can appreciate, but I can't say anything about visibility?

I think the idea of making "lawsuit proof" vehicles is probably one of the best points brought up.

All the new safety features they keep adding are just a mask for the true problem. The root of the problem is that new vehicles completely detract from the driving experience, have shit for visibility, and are filled with distractions for the driver. Of course our cell-phone crazy, hyper-active, now-now-now modern day standard of living is another factor.

If they got rid of all the safety-net bullshit and made cars that were meant for driving, people would be forced to drive properly, or they would get in accidents and pay for the negligence. What are idiot drivers learning if they crash and walk away fine to a new car that's more distracting.

Back on topic. Are there any new cars with good visibility?

[mikeedler]

I feel ya. Only good ones I've sat in are new tiguans and minis.

obviously never driven a Mini vert. I take it.

\

happily, mercedes has designed hoodpins that will "upon impacting a pedestrian" will pop the hood up 3 additional inches to further protect the ped...

BMW has had this on the new 5 series generation since it was released.


I'm not so sure about other makes/models, (because I don't drive them, but I think the sight from the newer 1 and 3 and 5 are just as good as the E30. I have a friend with a1973 Mach I mustang, hahaha the rear window is more of a sunroof than anything else.

[evandael]

The best visibility in any car I've driven was in an F650 super crewzer. Acres of glass and super high seating position, as well as a high glass to pillar ratio all contributed. Compare that to a newer car that's low, with a high belt line and tiny glass/huge pillars, of course there are sacrifices made in visibility.


Half the drivers I see don't use turn signals to switch lanes on the highway, I bet they don't even glance backwards. We have lane departure systems and blind spot detection warnings and backup cameras and distance meters for all the plebs to whom new cars are marketed and who actually buy these cars. Technology is replacing driving skill... but I'm preaching to the choir here so I'll just stop.

[nando]

the icing on the cake is the new tech from GM where you don't even have to keep your hands on the steering wheel, which is supposed to "make you pay more attention". what a joke.

[slammin.e28]

Just going from my e36 to my e46 is nuts. I feel constricted by the gigantic A pillars. I'm more cautious as I can't look around turns as well as I can in the e36. Then I get in my greenhouse of a Rover and I'm like, whuut? This must be what god feels like, seeing everything all at once.

[nando]

and then it breaks 5 seconds later, and you're like, oh, fuck me!

:p

[slammin.e28]

and then it breaks 5 seconds later, and you're like, oh, fuck me!

:p

Hey! I thought we were talking about visibility....not reliability. :p;)

[Ryan Stewart]

better impact protection

our drivers education is such that accident avoidance and car control do not exist. assume you will get creamed by a blonde chick texting while speeding in a 2.5 ton SUV.

instead of paying attention and avoiding.. or not doing stupid shit like texting, shaving, or brushing your hair while driving.

This. My new car has massive A and B pillars that house 40,000 airbags to protect me from the waffleswaffleswaffleswaffles that some asshole put in a tank because she "feels safer." I feel safer when I see those things upside down in the grass because I know its no longer a danger to myself.

[Jon325i]

Will pretty much nailed it.

I think the solution to the "big picture" problem here is 2-fold....

#1 - revamp our countries' driving curriculum. The present one is out dated and ineffective at best. Take a page from the Germans or the Finnish about driving requirements!

#2 - improved safety for crashes is important....that can't be dispensed with, but better design and use of materials for key areas that improve safety margins are key.

Another, albeit somewhat related to this point, is 'Mercans and their growing waistlines. 1/3 of the US population is considered obese to some degree. We don't need bigger cars....we need fewer drive-thru options and more dieting/exercise.

[BlackbirdM3]

How bad are the California drivers tests? Lets put it this way, I passed with a 100% score with 0 behind the wheel experience. Zero, as in nada, nil, nothing. (I was 25 when I took the test.) Do I think I'm cool that I managed to do that? No, I think the test was far too easy and I should have failed miserably based on my lack of experience. It was all common sense, very little skill involved. The following week I drove my Datsun 600 miles each direction to a show in Mt Shasta where I did my first autoX and also nearly killed myself when I very nearly spun the car off the side of the mountain. That weekend taught me two things, one, I was a shitty driver, and two, always respect the car first and foremost.

The visibility out of that car with no top on it is epic. There is no blind spot even with only a rear view mirror and a drivers side door mirror. (No passenger side door mirror.) The Alfa GTV I needed to at least look over my shoulder, but still rear visibility was very good. The M3 however will hide bigger vehicles and I need to look over my shoulders before changing lanes. It does have huge blind spots. (Yes, it irritates me, but I make do.)

Like I stated, its not the car thats the issue its the people piloting the car that are the issue. There should be no way in hell anyone with no behind the wheel experience can pass a behind the wheel test, let alone do so with a perfect score.



Will

[mrsleeve]

to make them more pedestrian safe when you bump into them