George Graves and his volt meters

[expressfish]

wow, as a full time lurker I find it hard to believe, but I got burned by vlad, and he was around for a long time too. Guess things happen, but I would do everything I could to get their monies back to them. ............as one individual said.....
you've collected over $1500 from members here alone, and can't offer a refund...is it safe to assume you've spent these individuals $ prior to delivering them their product?

shame on you. I think schinitzer318 explained it best.

[Earendil]

"When great men fall"...?? WTF are you smoking?

This is bullshit. The dude has been blatantly ignoring his customers, and now says he can't even afford to refund them...

After reading the initial description for this particular product this seems obvious. He needed a minimum number of buyers up front just to fund the product, right? So of course the money is tired up in components. Now, in the last year, or when things started going south on the design, he should have started putting some money away (if possible) so that he could offer refunds when the time came. He didn't do that, and we can choose to believe one of two things:
GG is an unethical bastard with no intention of delivery
GG is misguided and did not foresee the hard times he is now on.

Since he is still around, and still talks like he's trying to make things right, I choose to believe the second one. If he wanted to cut contact and run with the money he never had to post here again. He didn't do that though.

while at the same time saying that the current product is not good enough in his opinion, so he may have to START FROM SCRATCH. How's he going to start from scratch without any money to buy the materials?!?

He hasn't defined what "from scratch" is, and we don't know the component list and price. He could mean that he has to design it from scratch, but using the same primary components.

Ridiculous.

That is indeed the case. But just because the situation is ridiculous and unfortunate, does not make the man evil.

How come he hasn't been banned yet?

Because so far he hasn't shown a pattern of screwing customers, and has only had issues with this one product, yes? And he has ceased to take more orders on this product, yes?
So if you ban him now, I see a few immediate negatives with only one potential positive
Negative: You lose a path of communication.
Negative: GG loses motivation to ever make this right.
Negative: Other costumers lose out on his fine products
Negative: GG loses the chance at redemption

Positive: No one gets screwed by him again? This is hardly a guarantee, and since he hasn't shown a pattern of evil intent, I'm inclined to give him a second chance.

No one will make YOU give him a second chance, but I'd personally like to give him a second chance in the future. In fact, I fully expect that no one directly involved in this ordeal will be his customers again, and no one expects or is asking you to be. But the REST of us have had nothing but pleasant dealings. If this were eBay, he's be sitting at a 99.5% rating. In fact, the more I roll this over, the more I'm going to be pissed if GG is banned. Why? Because at this point GG has shown no intent to harm the community, so if he gets banned it'll be for the sake of a few people's revenge. As soon as GG starts showing a pattern of not shipping products I would expect that he would close up shop on his own, but if he doesn't than he deserves the ban at that point.

[Lodsin]

- Everyone will get exactly what they ordered. I was ready to start shipping a handful of these gauges a while ago, and pulled the plug at the last minuet when I wasn't happy with the finished product. Some other vendors ship half-assed things, but I just couldn't do it. It's not the way I work. There are others that are going to have a different opinion on that. But, that's how I roll.

- Lastly, to all the supporters - thank you. And yes, I hope to be making even more cool things in the future.

gg

I don't know about you..but if everyone had a GG mindset Walmart and China would be out of business.

I've bought only three products from GG, after receiving them I was more than pleased with the quality of the products and was even a little surprised by them. I would think when buying products of great quality you could understand when something just isn't right, and for the producer to hold off on shipping out. If I had a reputation to uphold on either my product or customer service, I'd rather it be on the product. Customer Service is great, it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy like someone cares but its bullshit. When it really comes down to it, its all about the product and George Graves DELIVERS.

I don't know George at all besides from being a customer and reading R3v. But, it is very clear that the man has a great love for e30's and our community. He's been here for almost 10 years making products for a car NO ONE really gives a shit about!

I'm not saying STFU GG IS Teh Beztes. He is just a good guy trying to give new and exciting things to our community.

If he does get banned...well It's been a good run ole' boy, thanks for all you've done for us.

[Schnitzer318is]

Having purchased from George. Quality of his products is top notch, but as others have said this is not a good situation.

Refunds should be given and development on this product should be abandoned (unless supply and cost situation is worked out to allow stocking the units before sale). Just my thoughts as a previous small business owner with an original product for the mustang community. Time to visit the pawn shop to pay these people back. I've never had to do that, but would not be too proud to do so in order to make it right with my customers.

Just my .02. I would hate to see George banned though. He makes excellent products and genuinely cares about the e30 community. This situation was just mishandled from a business perspective. Again IMO.

[MR 325]

We're not talking about this thread, the one we're posting on now.

We're talking about THIS thread, which was named after me by George after I starting pestering him for updates, months ago:

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=244376

EDIT: Looks like someone re-named it, again.

Fixed that thread title and locked it to avoid further editing.

[hooken m]

george i purchased your temp sensor, which i never used, but received it in a very quick time frame, but this is complete bullshit. this is not how business is conducted. sell some things you dont use return peoples money and slowly regain your trust and respect within the community.

[mach schnell]

Disclaimer, I am not currently waiting for an unshipped item, however I have purchased multiple items from GG in the past so feel that my voice is at least as warranted as those piling on GG when they haven't even purchased anything.

Let this be a lesson to everyone about Commerce. GG does not represent a large company that can absorb the ebb and flow of business and an employee's personal problems. GG is a loan wolf, and selling products that are not built yet. The dude could up and die and you basically have no recourse. So know that going into the purchase. If you want customer service and predictability go buy off Amazon. If you want a hand crafted one off device with quality you won't find anywhere else, then take the risk. If you "buy" a product that hasn't been invented yet you are an investor, and like any investment you run the risk of losing your investment. In this case it looks like GG has run into unforeseen problems. A large company could plan for such events, do so reasonably, and it would be reasonable to expect that. A one man operation holds no such implied promise.

The outcome I'd like to see for the benefit of GG and the community is for updates: when things eventually ship, and to know how many people end up getting refunds when possible. In the mean time, perhaps GG could pen down his sales/work process and the risks involved for those that are a little green at being a consumer.

I honestly believe that GG is trying to do right by us. It's not as "right" as we'd like, but it's what he's able to do. He's going to learn from them, and so are we. What I'd hate to see happen is that we take this shitty experience for GG, and imply to him that his years of service in this community are all wiped away. I don't want that to happen to him, and I don't want the next amateur business hobbiest that decides to benefit this community to be too scared to try.

I think it is a testament to how much GG means to this community that when he has a personal problem THIS MANY PEOPLE are effected. When great men fall, people notice and it effects many. Ban those with intent to cheat our community, but forgive those that fail us while meaning well.

Now I'm going to peace out.

"When great men fall"...?? WTF are you smoking?

This is bullshit. The dude has been blatantly ignoring his customers, and now says he can't even afford to refund them... while at the same time saying that the current product is not good enough in his opinion, so he may have to START FROM SCRATCH. How's he going to start from scratch without any money to buy the materials?!?

Ridiculous.

How come he hasn't been banned yet?

[mach schnell]

It's had "George Graves" in the title since I found the thread. It's the reason I clicked on it.

We're not talking about this thread, the one we're posting on now.

We're talking about THIS thread, which was named after me by George after I starting pestering him for updates, months ago:

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=244376

EDIT: Looks like someone re-named it, again.

[Earendil]

Well, I, for one, would like it changed back to something relating to GEORGE GRAVES, and not me.

Thanks.

It's had "George Graves" in the title since I found the thread. It's the reason I clicked on it.

[mach schnell]

Since this one is directed toward the staff here. I'll reply to it. Every member here is able to change/edit their thread titles. And from the edit history on that post, it's all George. No mod or admin changed it...

Well, I, for one, would like it changed back to something relating to GEORGE GRAVES, and not me.

Thanks.

[JasonC]

word to mods aswell(constructive criticism) not cool on whoever changed title on the George Graves feedback thread, to the MachShnell feedback thread...making light of the situation.


-Ryan

Since this one is directed toward the staff here. I'll reply to it. Every member here is able to change/edit their thread titles. And from the edit history on that post, it's all George. No mod or admin changed it...

[SlamedIAm]

If anyone wants my spot in line for a volt meter can paypal me $100.

PM me for details

PM Sent

[Earendil]

Disclaimer, I am not currently waiting for an unshipped item, however I have purchased multiple items from GG in the past so feel that my voice is at least as warranted as those piling on GG when they haven't even purchased anything.

Let this be a lesson to everyone about Commerce. GG does not represent a large company that can absorb the ebb and flow of business and an employee's personal problems. GG is a loan wolf, and selling products that are not built yet. The dude could up and die and you basically have no recourse. So know that going into the purchase. If you want customer service and predictability go buy off Amazon. If you want a hand crafted one off device with quality you won't find anywhere else, then take the risk. If you "buy" a product that hasn't been invented yet you are an investor, and like any investment you run the risk of losing your investment. In this case it looks like GG has run into unforeseen problems. A large company could plan for such events, do so reasonably, and it would be reasonable to expect that. A one man operation holds no such implied promise.

The outcome I'd like to see for the benefit of GG and the community is for updates: when things eventually ship, and to know how many people end up getting refunds when possible. In the mean time, perhaps GG could pen down his sales/work process and the risks involved for those that are a little green at being a consumer.

I honestly believe that GG is trying to do right by us. It's not as "right" as we'd like, but it's what he's able to do. He's going to learn from them, and so are we. What I'd hate to see happen is that we take this shitty experience for GG, and imply to him that his years of service in this community are all wiped away. I don't want that to happen to him, and I don't want the next amateur business hobbiest that decides to benefit this community to be too scared to try.

I think it is a testament to how much GG means to this community that when he has a personal problem THIS MANY PEOPLE are effected. When great men fall, people notice and it effects many. Ban those with intent to cheat our community, but forgive those that fail us while meaning well.

Now I'm going to peace out.

[Dj Buttchug]

wow

[aaron325ix]

If anyone wants my spot in line for a volt meter can paypal me $100.

PM me for details

And just to clarify, I'm not trying to pile on GG here or anything. Simply put, its been a year, Ive since bought a volt meter from another forum member, so no need to have my c note just out there. I've sent a pm to GG basically stating the same but never heard back. Its possible that in the future when he gets these things rolling again I might want one, but till then I need to recoup my money.