what happens to our E30's if we run out of oil?

[CarsSuck]

that link doesnt work. i really want to see that report, where can i find it?

[BigD]

No, this is what I said in post #24: "It either needs to be extracted from fossil fuels or from water by electrolosis"

I was referring to your quotation about the cost of hydrogen generation from wind. "The cost of making hydrogen from wind is $1.12 to $3.20 per gallon of gasoline or diesel equivalent ($3 to $7.40 per kilogram of molecular hydrogen)?on par with the current price of gas" It just seems bizzare to cling to such a limited source of energy as the specific electricity resource.

No, I'm not confused. The "Brown's gas" people are essentially claiming perpetual motion. Legitimate hydrogen is different altogether.

That may be but when did you see me refer to Brown's gas?

Can you have an educated discussion without being a smart ass? Electricity generated by wind will go into the same grid as all the other electricity and will cost the same as all electricity on the grid.

your claim of .03 per kilo must be for just the electricity, and not overhead costs (equipment, land, labor, etc..)

http://nrelpubs.nrel.gov/Webtop/ws/nich/www/public/ResultSet?upp=0&rpp=500&w=NATIVE%28%27KEYWORD2+ph+words+%27%27hydrogen+production+cost%27%27%27%29&order=native%28%27pubyear%2FDescend%27%29

Check out document #4:

Levene, J. I.; Mann, M. K.; Margolis, R.; Milbrandt, A. (2005). Analysis of Hydrogen Production from Renewable Electricity Sources: Preprint. 9 pp.; NREL Report No. CP-560-37612.

Check out page 4 of the report (page 6 of the pdf). These are projected production costs. Guess what? At current electricity prices we're looking at $3-4 per kilo, same number that the people at STANFORD UNIVERSITY came up with.

I apologize if I seemed rude, that is not my intent. It's just very odd when you keep talking about wind for hydrogen and comparing it to the pump price of gasoline as if it's just a natural resource like apples that we pay Bob $2.90 for, to go pick a gallon off the tree. Who cares about wind when we have sources like hydro plants and nuclear energy? If the same study was to take into consideration the costs of drilling, transporting across oceans and refining oil, the per gallon price of gasoline would be quite scary. But after your country consumes 20 million barrels a day at a massive markup, the overhead becomes meager by comparison. It's only fair to do the same for hydrogen since we're looking at it as a replacement fuel.

Since you like Stanford, here's a quick find:

http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/hydrogen.html

"Assuming $0.05 per kwh of electricity from a nuclear power plant during low demand, hydrogen would cost $0.09 per kwh ( Bockris and Wass 1988 ). This is the equivalent of $0.67 per liter of gasoline. Gasoline sells at the pump in the United States for about $0.30 per liter."

These are 1996 prices because now gas in the US is well over 70 cents per liter, and the national average for electricity is in the low 4 cents/kWh.

My point is that it's FEASIBLE, not just "technically". So if oil runs out (remember, that's the subject?), our cars aren't gong anywhere. Even if you did it TODAY, it wouldn't be much more expensive IF AT ALL than gasoline. Yes it may be a scary gas because you're taught to fear it but it's still a gas - which as you probably know will always strive to fill its container uniformly. So if a leak should occur, it will rapidly evaporate and disperse (unless you are in an enclosed area...). Liquid hydrogen is transported on a daily basis in tractor trailer fulls with no explosions. The only potential problem is clogging of the vent valves but I'm sure engineers will solve that too (as they probably have since BMW is selling cars to the public now).

[CleanAzzE30z]

2) Its not going to happen most likely in this lifetime. That being said, I highly doubt even 95% of us are going to be driving e30's ten years from now,

Im not selling my cars. Il live in the before i sell them. ;)

Mariano

[permit]

Dear original poster,

You are an idiot.

Sincerely,

Jeremy

[Eliminator]

I was referring to your quotation about the cost of hydrogen generation from wind. "The cost of making hydrogen from wind is $1.12 to $3.20 per gallon of gasoline or diesel equivalent ($3 to $7.40 per kilogram of molecular hydrogen)?on par with the current price of gas" It just seems bizzare to cling to such a limited source of energy as the specific electricity resource.

I copied that directly from the link I posted earlier. I agree that it's odd to specify wind power exclusively. It shouldn't matter where the electricity comes from. I also think that statement could be worded better.

That may be but when did you see me refer to Brown's gas?

I don't think you did. Other people did.

I apologize if I seemed rude, that is not my intent. It's just very odd when you keep talking about wind for hydrogen and comparing it to the pump price of gasoline as if it's just a natural resource like apples that we pay Bob $2.90 for, to go pick a gallon off the tree. Who cares about wind when we have sources like hydro plants and nuclear energy?

No offense taken, and I agree. I don't think wind has to be the exclusive source, it's just what that one Stanford report mentioned.

"Assuming $0.05 per kwh of electricity from a nuclear power plant during low demand, hydrogen would cost $0.09 per kwh ( Bockris and Wass 1988 ). This is the equivalent of $0.67 per liter of gasoline. Gasoline sells at the pump in the United States for about $0.30 per liter."

These are 1996 prices because now gas in the US is well over 70 cents per liter, and the national average for electricity is in the low 4 cents/kWh.

My point is that it's FEASIBLE, not just "technically". So if oil runs out (remember, that's the subject?), our cars aren't gong anywhere. Even if you did it TODAY, it wouldn't be much more expensive IF AT ALL than gasoline. Yes it may be a scary gas because you're taught to fear it but it's still a gas - which as you probably know will always strive to fill its container uniformly. So if a leak should occur, it will rapidly evaporate and disperse (unless you are in an enclosed area...). Liquid hydrogen is transported on a daily basis in tractor trailer fulls with no explosions. The only potential problem is clogging of the vent valves but I'm sure engineers will solve that too (as they probably have since BMW is selling cars to the public now).

I think we're actually making the same points (or at least trying to), and are generally in agreement. The costs I quoted were in dollars per gallon, and are pretty similar to the current price of gasoline. So, yes, it's technically and economically feasible. Actually getting it done is a whole different story.

As far as the E30s go, they *could* be converted to hydrogen power. In theory it would be similar to converting to LPG or CNG.

[Eliminator]

that link doesnt work. i really want to see that report, where can i find it?

http://www.nrel.gov/publications/

it won't let me direct link. Go here, then "search database" then use keywords "hydrogen production cost" and you should be able to find it.

[BigD]

I think we're actually making the same points (or at least trying to), and are generally in agreement.

Me too. :)

[MOTOREN]

Dear original poster,

You are an idiot.

Sincerely,

Jeremy

...unlike you, I respect and celebrate our differences...how old are you?

I'm not entirely sure we will get to a point where oil is entirely impossible to get within our lifetimes, I just wanted to see the reactions of my fellow enthusiasts...:grin: