Turbo M20 Stroker (3.2L) into an E21!(with pics) - Build/Help Thread

[HaloArchive]

Hello All,

I have an E21 that is getting the m20 and euro treatment but, while that is going on, I am going to start building another m20 turbo on my stand to swap in :)

EDIT:

The final build is as follows:

Bottom: Carillo Pistons/Rods, S52 crank, ARP hardware (~3150 CC)
Head: Custom work from Shant :)
Injectors: 850cc Siemens
Turbo: GT4094r
EMS: VEMS 3.6 w/ Wasted Spark

EDIT 2: Recent PICS on PAGE 2


Cheers

[Northern]

60lb Siemens deka injectors will be more than enough, and are only ~225$

if you're sending the head to bimmerheads/myster-e, look into getting the coolant passages welded at the same time.

and if you're going aftermarket pistons, look into the non-interference Metric Mechanic pistons. If you put a lot of money into the head/bottom end, it is good insurance against a bad timing belt/tensioner/gear ruining everything (IMO of course)

[BMWManiac]

I don't think Bimmerheadz will weld the coolant passages...I have a Bimmerheadz head and I asked about it before I bought it and they responded that they don't do that....maybe things have changed?

[einstein57]

I'd say your initial list looks pretty good. I use the Siemens 80# injectors. They will give you room for e85. Which means you should get the AEM e85 pump which is pretty cheap too. As far as the head I'd start with the cam and valve springs. You can always get a ported and polished head down the line if you feel it's not enough. You can get to your goal with a seta based striker for $5k or less if you do all your own work. Don't forget to get a clutch. I use a grip force s52 setup.

The first thing to buy is the mega squirt, wideband and injectors. Get it running smooth first before you take everything apart and chase your tail trouble shooting.

[HaloArchive]

60lb Siemens deka injectors will be more than enough, and are only ~225$

if you're sending the head to bimmerheads/myster-e, look into getting the coolant passages welded at the same time.

and if you're going aftermarket pistons, look into the non-interference Metric Mechanic pistons. If you put a lot of money into the head/bottom end, it is good insurance against a bad timing belt/tensioner/gear ruining everything (IMO of course)

I was reading the difference in injectors, my decision came with me thinking its better for the injectors to be higher rated so the duty cycle isn't maxed out. Not unless it doesn't matter? Im also thinking that what if I want to up the power in the future, it would save me time to already have high flow injectors in there.

Also, Myster-E looks like there is a welded passages option available on their website. I was thinking of buying a fully spec'ed out head so that it would not be a cause for concern later down the line.

I'd say your initial list looks pretty good. I use the Siemens 80# injectors. They will give you room for e85. Which means you should get the AEM e85 pump which is pretty cheap too. As far as the head I'd start with the cam and valve springs. You can always get a ported and polished head down the line if you feel it's not enough. You can get to your goal with a seta based striker for $5k or less if you do all your own work. Don't forget to get a clutch. I use a grip force s52 setup.

The first thing to buy is the mega squirt, wideband and injectors. Get it running smooth first before you take everything apart and chase your tail trouble shooting.

Whats the difference between the Siemens and Bosch injectors? I was also reading that if I can find low-impedance injectors that the idle will be smoother? Due to there not being many E85 stations in my area (closest one is 20 miles and the next closest is 300 miles), I would prefer if I could run pump gas and methanol.

The car already has a Sachs clutch setup but I dont think it will be able to hold the power. Maybe im wrong though.

The stroker thing goes back to my original question ... How well do strokers handle FI? Ive seen mixed results. If itd be significantly easier for me to make my power goals with a 2.9l or 3.0l, id gladly go that route.

What wideband do you suggest?

Cheers

[HaloArchive]

This section might be more dead than e30tech. Anyone?

[LowR3V'in]

^hey man well there is allot of if, ands, or buts
type of threads that never get off the ground. Show us that you're
serious and get the ball rolling by taking pics and people will give you more advice. :early:


Going from the 2.5 to 2.9 I think you need to get bored out no?

That small jump in displacement might not be what you expect and perhaps
money better spend on billet pistons with the stock 2.5.

modern (not the big metal ones) high z injectors are easy to control. There's no
need to do low z anymore.

devils own is the best value. I'm using allot of their stuff.

Every 0.1L makes a difference though and 10k is ALLLLOOOTT of cash
to sink into an m20 so go crazy and do it just to find out! ;D

[HaloArchive]

^hey man well there is allot of if, ands, or buts
type of threads that never get off the ground. Show us that you're
serious and get the ball rolling by taking pics and people will give you more advice. :early:

Going from the 2.5 to 2.9 I think you need to get bored out no?

That small jump in displacement might not be what you expect and perhaps
money better spend on billet pistons with the stock 2.5.

modern (not the big metal ones) high z injectors are easy to control. There's no
need to do low z anymore.

devils own is the best value. I'm using allot of their stuff.

Every 0.1L makes a difference though and 10k is ALLLLOOOTT of cash
to sink into an m20 so go crazy and do it just to find out! ;D

Thanks man. I need to get the pieces right first though before I sink cash in. I talked to the guys at Ireland and their 2.9 kit is with an 85mm bore. However, their 3.0 kit is also listed as 85mm bore and I forgot to take notes on that bit but, if the 3.0 is 85mm, I will go with that as the longer rod will reduce bottom end wear.

I like the looks of the MM kit but their prices are a bit too high as this isn't going to be a N/A engine, the extra cost is not warranted even if their interference design is cool.

I also sent a few question to Matt (Mr325) over Facebook and have yet to hear any response back. Ill pose them here too in case anyone knows - Does their turbo cam grind require deeper valve reliefs and when the water channels are welded, how much do they deck the head?

Im curious because I need to know if ill receiver groove the head or the block for the o-ring and the numbers to find my exact compression ratio to tell IE what exact piston dimensions I need and once I find out that, I will be able to work on my block to exact dimensions for the tightest fit for my pistons.

Oh the curse of being OCD.

[dustyperez]

VAC will make non interference pistons if you ask

[HaloArchive]

VAC will make non interference pistons if you ask

Not sure if custom pistons on top of a custom kit is the way to go $$ wise. I may just buy the MM kit instead since it is with all required parts.

[SkiFree]

Well I overheard you talking with Jeremy yesterday. Not quite sure if you understood correctly. 85mm bore is what we recommend but we'll make the pistons whatever you want. As Jeremy said the engine characteristics vary depending on the stroke you choose.

As for the cam and piston to valve clearance. There is no cut and dry way of approaching it like you're trying to do. I ,and a few others on here, feel the MM non-interference pistons are too much of a compromise on some other aspects of the piston design. But again Jim is a smart guy and there's always more than one "right way to skin the cat". Nothing NOTHING should take the place of a good putty-check to check clearances prior to running the engine.

Head decking largely depends on the condition of the head being used.

What other "required parts" are you concerned about?

Lastly, a friendly word of caution. Getting opinions is a great way to get started but if your OCD like I am then the more and more differing opinions you receive the more frustrated you will become, and the more likely you'll have more difficulty with the engine.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=294666

[HaloArchive]

Well I overheard you talking with Jeremy yesterday. Not quite sure if you understood correctly. 85mm bore is what we recommend but we'll make the pistons whatever you want. As Jeremy said the engine characteristics vary depending on the stroke you choose.

As for the cam and piston to valve clearance. There is no cut and dry way of approaching it like you're trying to do. I ,and a few others on here, feel the MM non-interference pistons are too much of a compromise on some other aspects of the piston design. But again Jim is a smart guy and there's always more than one "right way to skin the cat". Nothing NOTHING should take the place of a good putty-check to check clearances prior to running the engine.

Head decking largely depends on the condition of the head being used.

What other "required parts" are you concerned about?

Lastly, a friendly word of caution. Getting opinions is a great way to get started but if your OCD like I am then the more and more differing opinions you receive the more frustrated you will become, and the more likely you'll have more difficulty with the engine.

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=294666

I understood what Jeremy was talking about. However, I may go 86mm anyway. With a good tune and some time on a dyno it should be fine and, according to Jim, the 86mm bore is fine for boost but nothing larger than that since warpage is more distinctive with thinner walls (of course)

That being said, I agree, I have talked to You guys, MM and Vac and have heard 3 differing ideas. I think its time I just start buying stuff and start building my engine! ;D

[HaloArchive]

I purchased some things yesterday (S52 crank, rods and an oil spacer) And, I talked to Jim today and heard something interesting ...

He thinks that getting 8.5:1 CR will be near impossible with the rod/crank combo in a m20 while still using the stock 22mm pin size. I feel like it can be done. Any thoughts? (Anyone care to do the math)

[einstein57]

Whats the difference between the Siemens and Bosch injectors? I was also reading that if I can find low-impedance injectors that the idle will be smoother? Due to there not being many E85 stations in my area (closest one is 20 miles and the next closest is 300 miles), I would prefer if I could run pump gas and methanol.

The car already has a Sachs clutch setup but I dont think it will be able to hold the power. Maybe im wrong though.

The stroker thing goes back to my original question ... How well do strokers handle FI? Ive seen mixed results. If itd be significantly easier for me to make my power goals with a 2.9l or 3.0l, id gladly go that route.

What wideband do you suggest?

Cheers

Spray design and cost. Siemens are the cheapest injectors around for a high capacity, high resistance injector. My car idles just fine. Just takes a little more patience tuning. Little adjustments make large changes in AFRs. I use the innovate because its cheap, easy to get cheap replacement sensors, and megasquirt is setup to use them out of the box.

I've tuned a 3.1 turbo car and it was a torque monster. It had some fundamental design flaws in the turbo setup though. Like a 2.5" downpipe. Ireland has been ordering pistons for a while and i'm sure they know whats up with the piston options. You could always contact the piston companies directly (JE, Ross, CP etc.) but they may charge you an engineering fee up front. I'll be using either an eta crank or an s50 crank for my next motor.

[HaloArchive]

Spray design and cost. Siemens are the cheapest injectors around for a high capacity, high resistance injector. My car idles just fine. Just takes a little more patience tuning. Little adjustments make large changes in AFRs. I use the innovate because its cheap, easy to get cheap replacement sensors, and megasquirt is setup to use them out of the box.

I've tuned a 3.1 turbo car and it was a torque monster. It had some fundamental design flaws in the turbo setup though. Like a 2.5" downpipe. Ireland has been ordering pistons for a while and i'm sure they know whats up with the piston options. You could always contact the piston companies directly (JE, Ross, CP etc.) but they may charge you an engineering fee up front. I'll be using either an eta crank or an s50 crank for my next motor.

Yeah, I think ill get the Siemens 835cc instead of the Bosch 1000cc but I just hope that they will flow well enough.

I see you say you're planning a small crank for your next build. This is why Im curious about my 89.6mm S52 crank with the 135mm S52 rods working out for boost on my car.

I hope that the rod angle will be able to clear the piston skirts and, I hope that I am able to get the compression down low enough. Im shooting for 8.5:1 or 8.3:1. The biggest problem is that I may not be able to fit a 3 ring stack on the piston because for full seal on the pistons to prevent downward boost leak and for complete oil scraping, the stack would have to be something like 14mm and the piston availability above the wrist pin is only 12 according to my rough calculations.

I would have to cut into the oil ring support which would create a weak spot in the piston. It is doable but I think that I may be creating a possible problem spot in my bottom end. Especially since I will be running at least 1 - 1.5 bar.