Canadian Health Care? Is it really like this?

[kommissar]

Who's making stuff up? I don't need to read the news I work in this industry. This is what I do.

I didn't mean to say that everybody who posts here is lying. Obviously, there are some people who know what they are talking about, and others who do not. I pointed out two things in the last page or so of this thread that I noticed were incorrect.

I think my point still stands, though. When people get into political debates, the lines between what's actually proven fact and what is speculation to help support an argument are often blurred, and it would do everyone well to learn what they can from a variety of sources.

[CorvallisBMW]

Who's making stuff up? I don't need to read the news I work in this industry. This is what I do.

I don't see the problem with our healthcare system now.

Shenanigans!!!!!

Sorry, but anyone who 'works in the industry' knows that we have plenty of problems with our current system.

[Turf1600]

Shenanigans!!!!!

Sorry, but anyone who 'works in the industry' knows that we have plenty of problems with our current system.

The devil is in the details my friend. We do not have a healthcare problem related to quality of care. The issue is how it is all financed. Don't get in here and start twisting words. You and I both know that an uninsured individual with bottomless pockets can get the best healthcare on the planet here.

[metalix1021]

This is wrong. If employer based coverage is in place, then the employer can't switch unless they can't afford the private coverage they have now. It's right in the plan, give it a read.

Yes, but who gets to decide what a private business can afford? The government? That again means the them poking their nose into the private industry.

[Hallen]

Obviously you are confused by the proposed changes to our nation's healthcare system. The government will not be 'running' anything. They will simply be providing low-cost health insurance to compete with private insurance and provide an affordable option to those to don't have thousands of dollars a month to spend on private insurance for their families.

This assumes that the individual parts all work in their separate universes and never interact. The fact is, like everything else, these are highly interrelated and dependent systems. You can't go in and monkey around with one (major) part and say that it won't control other parts. It will and it does. Medicare itself has a huge impact on the current medical system, most of it negative.

What some of us see here is a snowball effect. Now maybe that won't come to pass, but I don't see how it couldn't.

We know that insurance companies of today charge a large fee and all they while they work hard at denying services and manipulating the care organisations for the benefit of the insurance companies.

We also know that the government run medical insurance plans do not try to manipulate care organizations. The government run agencies simply dictate to the health care organizations.

I'll say it again. The people trying to "fix" this problem don't know what the problems are. They are just using the "problem" as an excuse to assert their own agenda on us. All you hear coming from them is "50 million uninsured" and "Skyrocketing health care costs" but you never hear them say "because of this factor" or give any inkling of knowledge of why these things are happening.

And BTW, the WHO numbers on things like infant mortality rates are a joke. They don't compare apples to apples at all. The US is no worse on infant mortality rates than any of the other technologically advanced countries out there; its just in how you count the numbers.

The 50 million uninsured number is also a fallacy. They count a person uninsured if they were uninsured for any portion of a particular year. That means if you transfer policies or change jobs, you are counted in that number even if you didn't have insurance for only a day.

So don't swallow all these numbers as accurate or representative of the real situation. They're just trying to scare you into accepting what they want you to accept.

The problems in the health care industry is all about cost control and patient care. They are mostly mutually exclusive ideas. However a lot can be done on both sides of that picture that do not include government programs. That is the direction we should be looking. We shouldn't be looking at a government insurance program that will just continue the cost problems and cost us all a lot more than what we are paying now, with probably a worse level of care.

[mrsleeve]

This is wrong. If employer based coverage is in place, then the employer can't switch unless they can't afford the private coverage they have now. It's right in the plan, give it a read.

.

While this may true in the beginning what happens when the "low Cost" govt plan starts to choke out the private sector by causing the price of all heath care to go up. Just like medcaid dose right now, in that current program the hospitals get paid less than the cost of the materials and labor to provide the service. That will in turn cause the price to those that have Private insurance to go up dramatically to cover those losses and let the hospital stay open. That will in turn cause many many small business to not be able to afford the private options any more (due to the increase in premiums) and the cycle will start again and take larger corporations down the same road, till there is no more Private sector and all that will remain is the GOVT option.

[joshh]

Obama once said that anyone making under $250,000.00 a year will not see any tax increases at all. He's already lied.

How do you think he's going to fund this ridiculous healthcare plan? Taxing us more and fucking over small businesses.

One more step towards socialism.

The more the US kisses the ass of employees the more lazy they become. And the more they feel they "deserve" even more.

[johnwoo]

Shenanigans!!!!!

Sorry, but anyone who 'works in the industry' knows that we have plenty of problems with our current system.

we do have plenty of problems and there is no ONE solution. a NATIONAL HEALTH CARE SYSTEM is not the answer to ALL the problems. the current administration should take ALL the problems into consideration and not pimp the hell out of the national system as the absolute answer to all.

like i said in previous posts lots of things need to be updated, revamped, and changed.

[Pac1373]

I appreciate you point of view and think that what you say is true. I don't think that anybody is trying to say that the current US system is perfect and I am also not saying that the health care people in Canada suck or that there isn't some common sense being applied.

However, there are a few things to consider.
1) You may see how much comes out of your check that is dedicated to the health care system. What you don't see is the amount that is taken out as taxes that does go to the system too (plus for all the other social services that Canada provides). If you are taking home more than 50% of your gross pay and you live in Canada, you are doing good.

2) You blame the US for "stealing" Canadian doctors because they can come here and make the "big bucks". I don't doubt that it happens. But they really aren't making the big bucks, they're just making a lot more than they would up in Canada. Most GP and FP doctors don't make a huge amount of money here. They do pretty well, but they certainly don't get rich. Only the top dog specialists make the really big dollars (which in my opinion is commensurate with their skills).

However, I can pretty much guarantee that Canada wouldn't have wiz-bang MRI and other black magic machines to use if it weren't for the US. The technology development happens here (for the most part) and the US market buys enough of this stuff to drive the costs down where it is more widely available. Without that, I doubt you would have more than 5 MRI's in all of Canada right now.

So this kind of thing works both ways. Yes, I am sure Canadian doctors do come down here to work. But Canada also gets the benefit of the US pioneering and developing new and better medical technology.

(I also beleive that a lot of that pioneering would go away under a government run program. There will be little incentive to put money into something like that if there were little to no return)

For the US system, I said this before, but I don't think anybody who wants to make changes understands a damn thing about how all this stuff works, how much it really costs, why insurance rates are skyrocketing, why it costs $1500 for a 15 minute MRI session, etc. They just say its broken and start throwing parts at it to see if it fixes it. Pretty dumb, really.

I can see what you are getting with some of your points, however you will be surprised to know most people in Canada pay around 30-31% tax from payroll, this includes, employment insurance, Canada pension, provincial income tax, and federal income tax. Your employer deductions for things like extended medical (private rooms, upscale options and such) dental care and benefits are extras but most often even included in that 30-32%.
The myth that we are more heavily taxed than you guys really for the most parts is just that, a myth and we come from a MUCH smaller tax base. I might also point out that there are NO county taxes here per say.
Other taxes would include property taxes on real estate that you own and a federal sales tax (GST) at 6% and all provinces except for Alberta have a provincial sales tax as well.
You are correct, the U.S. does not steal our DR’s, they go willingly, I think this trend has been reducing for some time, but I don’t have any facts on that as you stated it is there, it is here as well, a GP isn’t going to be a multi millionaire out of the gates, but a heart surgeon may very well end up as one here.
You may be surprised to know up until about a month ago Canada supplied a massive chunk of the medical isotopes supplied to the U.S. and many huge advancements in medical research are pioneered here even with our socialist system, sciences have always been well funded.
I think my point is, Healthcare for everyone is not a bad thing, and from my understanding (it was before my time) we had the same debates up here as you Americans are having in this thread now when we brought in "social medicine"...
There are few if any Canadians that would say it is a bad Idea now
Just my .02 FWIW

[Pac1373]

I appreciate your input on this. Just one question: how can Ontario offer free health care?

I would make the assumption that it is due to them haveing (by far) the largest Provincial tax base in Canada.

I don't know the details of provincial/federal funding split as it pertains to healthcare.