Hilary plan vs. Obama plan

[mrsleeve]

Go to somewhere that isn't the US?

Oh wait, the rest of the first world already has a proper bankrupt, rationed, inefficient, ultra expensive, govt run healthcare system. Shucks.

There fixed that for you.

[StereoInstaller1]

i hope you have evidence to back up the increase pay. physician salaries have pretty much stayed the same or has increase at a lower rate than yearly inflation which actually means physicians make less than what they made in the 80s. other fields such as pa, nurses, techs, have all increased. many physicians do not have delusions of making it rich by going into the medical field. it provides a career that is stimulating and challenging at the same time rewarding. but physicians are also not here to work for free.

Exactly why I said "Chief Surgeon and Directors", not just the average hardworking Doctor. I am friends with a couple of doctors, I know a little about how it works.

physician reimbursement is complete shit your not going to attract the smartest and innovative people into the field. they are going to do something else that pays better. then you will have a shortage of physicians like in canada and who is going to take care of your new 50 million uninsured people that have suddenly been insured.

Good point: lets pay the guys who do the actual work, both patient care and research very well. They are the ones busting their asses, they are the ones with a quarter-million in student loans...

[Joey Link]

The thing is competition would take care of greedy people and businesses if it were easier to undercut others, like it's supposed to be in a capitalistic society. Price controls never work, so that's not an option either. I know people are going to bitch when I say this, but deregulating and getting out of the markets way is the only thing that's going to save health care. The role of the government should be to promote competition, not inhibit it.

[Ral]

The role of the government should be to promote competition, not inhibit it.

+1. In all aspects of American society.

[StereoInstaller1]

The thing is competition would take care of greedy people and businesses if it were easier to undercut others, like it's supposed to be in a capitalistic society. Price controls never work, so that's not an option either. I know people are going to bitch when I say this, but deregulating and getting out of the markets way is the only thing that's going to save health care. The role of the government should be to promote competition, not inhibit it.

Joey, I am glad you are the kind of guy I can respect and yet completely disagree with.

I think the only way that Americas poor are gonna ever have any kind of decent health care is complete regulation.

If the rich wanna have their own special doctors, have at it!

The rest of Americas health care needs complete regulation.

[Joey Link]

Joey, I am glad you are the kind of guy I can respect and yet completely disagree with.

Me too buddy. Darin and I say the same thing about each other as well :)

I think the only way that Americas poor are gonna ever have any kind of decent health care is complete regulation.

If the rich wanna have their own special doctors, have at it!

The rest of Americas health care needs complete regulation.

I've never seen one instance that complete regulation did anything good for the common man or the poor. Sure, it sounds good on paper, but in the real world we have human nature to add to the mix, and everyone always has an agenda. You can't regulate human nature, you have to put in place policies that counteract it, and the only way to do that is through freedom, free markets, and choice. I, for one, couldn't afford to get many of the small items I use daily if it weren't for Walmart. Walmart has done more to help the poor than the government EVER has, and they've done it through competition. Free markets are efficient and driven by profit, so prices can naturally fall as low as possible. Governments are horribly inefficient because the people handling other peoples money have no incentive to create efficiency. Many simply do just enough work to keep their jobs, and even if they don't it's incredibly difficult to fire a government employee. There is absolutely no threat of the government going out of business, and if they need more money they try to raise taxes. Both the Democrats and Republicans benefit from this inefficiency and profit from it, so neither actually wants to reduce spending. This too hurts the little guy. If you really believe in helping the poor, take a look at businesses that are actually doing it. Politicians and government officials are all talk, no action.

[mrsleeve]

Little food for thought since now we have brought "the poor" in this.

The "Poor" Have been voting for the D's for 60+ years and guess what they are still poor.


The D's dont want to help the poor, they need them to keep their seat of power. And all sides but the D's in particular, pander to this demographic by telling them dont worry if you cant afford a house we make sure you have a place to live and food to eat, and some spending money. Oh and yeah if you need to see the doc you can do that too. That has created generation after generation of the entitlement class that is just leaching off the generosity of others. The more they promise to this rising demographic the more Votes they get to further keep their place in power and push their agenda.

Now they want even more control and to continue with the class warfare and bring all of us down to the same level other than the Ultra rich. The Middle class is what this country was built on and by, this is all out attack on all of us to put us under the thumb of the elected elite. DO you think any elected official is going to be on this "new Govt" plan???????????? FUCK NO THEY aren't they get to keep their uber care for life, they have exempted them selves form it. If its not good enough for congress then its not good enough for the rest of us.


Ok I am getting too far onto my soap box I will shut up now.


Oh and last thing if the GOVT run socialist heath care is really so great. Why is it that the Prime minster of Italy showe up over here in the USA at the Cleavland Clinic to get his heart surgery done
N

[StereoInstaller1]

Walmart has done more to help the poor than the government EVER has, and they've done it through competition.

Right thurr, bubba.

Arguments like yours are the main reason I have never voted. I see the logic on both sides and agree with both.

If I cannot make my own mind up clearly, my vote is pointless.

You are absolutely right about human nature and things that look good on paper. That is exactly why communism does not work.

I bet you and Darrin have terrific debates!

Luke

[CorvallisBMW]

There fixed that for you.

Actually, you didn't. We are the ones with the expensive, inefficient healthcare. Numbers and facts don't lie. We spend an average of $4178 per capita on healthcare costs, while the second most expensive country, Switzerland, spends only $2794 per capita. We spend more than double the median amount of developed nations, yet we don't even have care for every citizen. And you're calling them inefficient? Here's the full report:

dll.umaine.edu/ble/U.S.%20HCweb.pdf

For all of your soapboxing about how every other country has slow, inefficient, expensive government-run healthcare, you know precious little about the actual facts.

For instance, we spend 15.4% of our GDP on healthcare costs. Many other countries with 'socialized' healthcare systems spend less than 10% of their GDP:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html

We also rank dead last in preventable mortality among developed nations:

http://allcountries.org/health/usa_health_care_2008_nyt.html

I'm sure I don't need to tell you that overall, or healthcare ranks 37th out of 191 countries. We rank below countries such as Morocco, Dominica, Oman and even Columbia:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

But I'm sure you will have some crazy reason why your bizarre and illegitimate claims are still valid.

I bet you and Darrin have terrific debates!

yes, yes we do :)

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thats because they have to ration it. Thus less is spent per person.

They pay huge taxes to cover all that care, Like the 17%VAt and the 40+% Income taxes, the 200% fuel taxes, come on think for a second man. Much of those taxes were levied to pay for their heath care systems. And they still have long lines and draconian standards to meet before you can get care.

[Joey Link]

It's funny man, I used to be a die-hard Communist. Not even socialist, I was far past that. I've always been a passionate populist, probably due to growing up poor and seeing firsthand what helped and didn't help. I used to believe that the government could make everything better for everyone as long as we had 'good people' running the show. I didn't grasp the concept of human nature or that even 'good people' aren't exempt from it. I spent countless hours of my life researching, studying empirical facts, looking examples of what I thought was best and what others thought was best, etc. Eventually, luckily, I saw that my thinking was flawed.

I found that most of the actual help came from individuals, the community, churches, businesses, etc. I found that most of the programs that supposedly help such as welfare actually do great damage to those people by taking away their motivation, incentive, and will to better themselves or their lives. They grow complacent with where they are, often living in high crime neighborhoods eating boxed meals, and they're still poor. The people who still have that drive to do better for themselves often sell drugs because it's quick and easy. People usually choose the easier path. This is especially true if they were never raised with the knowledge that they could do better, because often at that point the person or people raising them have lost hope for themselves and they project that on the children. Compound that with high profile people and organizations spouting all this garbage of class warfare and people being 'oppressed', they start to believe it and it gives them an easy excuse as to why they're not doing better. Nobody mentions the theory of personal responsibility, they've been indoctrinated with the thought that the government is there to provide.

That kind of damage is hard to undo, and it can't be done with anything the government can provide.

[johnwoo]

Actually, you didn't. We are the ones with the expensive, inefficient healthcare. Numbers and facts don't lie. We spend an average of $4178 per capita on healthcare costs, while the second most expensive country, Switzerland, spends only $2794 per capita. We spend more than double the median amount of developed nations, yet we don't even have care for every citizen. And you're calling them inefficient? Here's the full report:

i like how you just throw up random stats and facts without understanding the context of the situation. have you looked the the immigration rates and policy to immigrate into switzerland? compare their rates and their policies to the united states and also remember the unaccounted illegals that come to the states. now factor in immigration into our numbers compared to switzerland.

the reason their system works is because their citizens understand the concept of EMERGENCY. they use the ER for emergencies not their own gp clinic.
hmm lets see i am a person without insurance and i go to the er for broken toe (something major but not necessarily an emergency). now i have free healthcare and im going to go to the er for my medical needs, athletic physical my general health check my poison ivy my hang nail my allergies.
how is that savings?

and some1 pointed this out before. if this plan is so grand why the hell is congress exempt???

why is the national hc system good enough for my family but not good enough for obamas?

[Joey Link]

Drug companies spend 10x as much on advertising as they do on R&D.

Where'd you find that fact? (I assume it is a fact, right?)

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

if you go back and look at the Party ideology and platforms they have actually swapped sides almost entirely from their founding intentions.

[h0lmes]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

if you go back and look at the Party ideology and platforms they have actually swapped sides almost entirely from their founding intentions.

Beaten.

Political parties change. The Democratic party of 150 years ago (before phones, cars, airplanes, computers, electricity) shares nothing with the Democratic party of today.