Cash for Caulkers???

[Wiglaf]

what do you call a doctor who nearly failed every class and just barely managed to graduate by a few points?


doctor.

[pbr87]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You FAIL at calling fails (nice try though)

You can still get into engineering apprenticeships even today and totally by pass the college experience, all though they are very very rare opportunities, as it cost the companies much much more money than just hiring a fresh recruit outta college.

So rare that they are almost non-existant--which means it is not really a valid example to your argument.

Also NOT THAT LONG AGO= less than 100 years ago.

Really, I thought the limitations on "not that long ago" included something that you could remember within your lifetime. But if your be-all, end-all definition of "not that long ago" is <100 years, then sure, you're right I guess.

My GGpa was a civil engineer in WWI and latter many of the work projects in the depression on into the 50's. Had 1 or 2 semesters of College in him the rest of his credential's were gained through apprenticeships. My gpa was a production engineer as well and yeah he did go to school for it.

You fail. He, even in WWI, had some college time under his belt.

[pbr87]

Noise filter or not,

I will say again A degree is not synonymous with ability, knowledge or skill. The assumption of which is the problem

Correct. But it does signify to potential employers that you can commit to, and finish, something that takes a great deal of time and effort. And a degree with a 3.5 or better GPA behind it, usually is synonymous with ability, knowledge and skill.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thats what your work history, Certifications and apprenticeships would take the place of.

and no a 3.5 gpa is synonymous with knows what the book says and can regurgitate information well. That dose not necessarily equate to skill or ability to do the job.


Again with fail.

Not that long ago in the context of history. Sorry I should have been more clear.

My ggp had some course work before he got into a apprenticeship and if IIRC it really had little to do with his filed as he wanted to be a lawyer.

A rare opportunity is a opportunity non the less is it not.

So rare that they are almost non-existant--which means it is not really a valid example to your argument.


Really, I thought the limitations on "not that long ago" included something that you could remember within your lifetime. But if your be-all, end-all definition of "not that long ago" is <100 years, then sure, you're right I guess.


You fail. He, even in WWI, had some college time under his belt.

[pbr87]

A rare opportunity is a opportunity non the less is it not.

Sure, a rare one is a good one. And sure, there are (presumably) a few apprenticeship engineering programs out there. But to 99.99999% of aspirinng engineers, college is the only viable option.

[Beastolizer]

This program, fundamentally, is not a bad idea.

1) It creates jobs in the private contracting field, thereby stimulating one of the most injured areas of our economy.
2) It gives homeowners an incentive to transform their homes into more energy-efficient spaces, which, presumably, would eventually reduce dependence on foreign oil, make our country "greener" and give money back to homeowners.
3) It stimulates spending on new commercial appliances, which could have a beneficial trickle-down effect on many commercial retail chains that have been suffering the effects of the recession.

Overall, I think he's spot-on with this. This program is one of the better facets of his overall stimulus agenda.

I agree with your statement sir.

[freeski27]

Thats what your work history, Certifications and apprenticeships would take the place of.

and no a 3.5 gpa is synonymous with knows what the book says and can regurgitate information well. That dose not necessarily equate to skill or ability to do the job.

I feel like you have an extremely biased view on this whole thing. Like I said before; you need a strong base of both schooling and work experience to be truly good at what you do. Just because you have dealt with some ignorant slackers from a bs school, does not mean you have the right to insult my time an work that I have put into my education. I bust my ass at at top notch school, taking 24 credits a semester; and work hard to obtain scholarships and maintain a 4.0 GPA. If you are honestly trying to tell me that you think that all I am capable of is to regurgitate information, then you sir are the dead wrong. In no way has anyone on here insulted your career path, so I don't appreciate you trying to tell me "all my education is worth is a piece of paper".

Bringing back paths that that our grandfathers have taken does nothing for us today. As you well know, the world changes; especially fast here in the US. I understand we have to learn from the past... but we don't have to resort to it.

Lastly, tell me this. If we were only to do apprenticeships; sure, we may be good at continuing what we are doing now. But how do you expect someone who was only taught to understand a very specific trade to make technological advances in the field? To make things better, stronger, and more efficient you need a deep understanding of how what you are doing works, and how all related things work as well. For example, sure maybe a ship yard worker knows that laying more longitudinal beams makes the ship stronger... but does he know how the height and base widths cubicly affect the second area moment of inertia? And that this moment of inertia affects deflection? Does he also know how to determine the best amount of deflection that will allow the ship to bend just enough without causing plastic deformation?

I'm sorry to sound like an ass but lets be honest... this is knowledge that you would only find in a well schooled Naval Architect (who can be found in all shipyards because they are necessary).

Besides, training 100 apprentices to build a ship is just ridiculous. Allow the people who have a good amount of experience, training, and knowledge in all of the fields delegate the work to the highly specific skilled trades people.

[mrsleeve]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I said not necessarily equate too, But it many cases as well it can equate to. I am not saying there is no place for college. Because there most certainly is. Never said its not hard work to pull 24 credit hours and do well at it either. (good for you)

A Engineers job is to take a problem and fix it, to take an idea and find a way to turn it into reality, a college education dose effect ones ability to bring about innovation for an entire industry.

Yes sure I bet you could train a naval Architect through a long apprenticeship, you are comparing a a ship builder to a designer thats 2 completely different scenarios. There for 2 in theory 2 different apprenticeship programs, time lines and scope of work involved. Ship builder say 3-5 years to gain the necessary skill set, Architect 7-9 or even more time line. I say instead of starting on the design team start at the bottom building the shit then work you way up. By doing so you will have a much deeper understanding of it all. And what those guys go though to maintain,and build them, since you know what its like you would look how to make that a better process. Much like cars are built by engineers not mechanics so nothing is easy or well thought out to fix or replace its all about ease of initial assembly???? same principal

Sorry I guess I am just old fashioned and think working your way up from the bottom (yes college can be part of that process) produces a better understanding and better over all management and upper level personnel, call me silly I guess

[pbr87]

I bust my ass at at top notch school, taking 24 credits a semester; and work hard to obtain scholarships and maintain a 4.0 GPA.

That's INSANE! I'm only taking 12 credits right now. Next semester, it will go up to around 18, but 24 with a 4.0......damn!

[freeski27]

lol, yeah. I'm dropping it to 22 next semester cause it pretty yields:

e30 time=very little

[pbr87]

lol, yeah. I'm dropping it to 22 next semester cause it pretty yields:

e30 time=very little

more like any free time = none!

[nfshot]

I notice this too. Conservatives tend to make a generalization that most college professrs are liberal. In economics, finance and business departments, this is certainly not the case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8427-2005Mar28.html

[bimmerboy12]

pbr87 do you cream your jeans every time you deliver a retort to any argument?

[pbr87]

pbr87 do you cream your jeans every time you deliver a retort to any argument?

yes

[bimmerboy12]

yes

I knew there HAD to be an urgent incentive.