Obamacare is passed.....let the outrage

[Massive Lee]

So, Hallen. Your excuse that the US is in 37th position is that all other countries are commies? Right?

Seems a long time since you've been travelleing or been interested by anything happening outside your county. Check each country on the list one by one. They are all capitalist countries. None from the Eastern Block or under Russian governance. Will you call Japan a commie or socialist country? What about Switzerland, Germany, Saudi Arabia France, Italy, Spain, Austria? Comie countries too? Come on Hallen, you have your pride so deep in your behind that any argument will not make you see the reality.
Open up and you shall see the light.

But hey. While in the mid 1960s, the US was fighting hard to make its citizens accept that whites and blacks were equal thru an anti-segregation amendment, in other countries around the world, governments were working on a universal health plan to better care for their citizens.

In regard of McCarthy, sure they did find a few commie spies. The same way spies were found in every other country of the world, but without going over civil rights. How many good American civilians had their life destroyed just because they were "Suspected"? That was part of the dak era in American history. Would you believe that anyone not driving an American car was suspected of being a commie spy? Yeah Sure. That makes a lot of commies on this forum.

[kronus]

You realize of course that those international heath care ranking numbers are pretty much worthless. Each country ranks different aspects of health differently. The most abused is infant mortality rates. In many places, if the infant dies in the first year, it is counted as basically stillborn and does not go against their infant mortality rates. In the US, even if a child is born without a brain and lives for a few hours, that infant is charged against the infant mortality rates. Those statistics are worthless if you try to compare them against each other. So, in other words, your list there is worthless. WHO has its own agenda, as does most of the UN agencies. They put out what they want you to hear. Yes, they lie to you, intentionally. As does Obama, Pelosi, Reed, Frank, Dodd, and most of the other politicians in D.C..

Also, pretty much every country on that list is strongly socialist with the US being only partly socialist. None of the countries have a free market. I'll put it another way so it is more palatable to you. All of the countries on that list, including the US, have a mixed system with some degree of capitalism and some degree of socialism. The two can exist at the same time (it just doesn't work well because socialism doesn't work). The US just currently has a higher degree of capitalism than most of the rest.

For capitalism to work well, you really need a free market. We are very far away from this now in the US and even further in Canada. This government involvement in the free market is what causes these boom bust cycles and is what causes things like medical care to be artificially expensive. Central planning never works as well as the free market does. Yet government for the last 100 years has felt it necessary to keep trying to "fix" things with new programs, etc. It only causes more problems.

This health care crap is yet another attempt at making us beholden to government, give government more power, and take away our personal responsibilities. It isn't being done because it is the "moral" thing to do. It isn't being done to help people. It is being done because people in D.C. think we are too stupid to take care of ourselves. It will be yet another giant ponzi scheme that will only cause us all to be less wealthy.

Wait, Oman is a socialist country? :|

More importantly, has anyone else noticed the recent trend that any time a poll or assembly of statistics is presented, someone now always says "well these numbers weren't gathered exactly the same way, so the study is completely worthless and thus proves the completely opposite viewpoint which happens to be mine"?

[ck_taft325is]

More importantly, just because a Country has a social (mandatory) health care program, does not mean anything in regards to how it works. Really. Just because someone has a broken Toyota with BMW badges on it doesn't make it a BMW.

[Good & Tight]

Greece is #14, you've got to be kidding me. If you get sick there and need hospital care YOU WILL DIE FOR SURE unless you grease the palms of the doctors and nurses with envelopes stuffed with $$$$. You will die for sure there.

[Hallen]

So, Hallen. Your excuse that the US is in 37th position is that all other countries are commies? Right?

Seems a long time since you've been travelleing or been interested by anything happening outside your county. Check each country on the list one by one. They are all capitalist countries. None from the Eastern Block or under Russian governance. Will you call Japan a commie or socialist country? What about Switzerland, Germany, Saudi Arabia France, Italy, Spain, Austria? Comie countries too? Come on Hallen, you have your pride so deep in your behind that any argument will not make you see the reality.
Open up and you shall see the light.

But hey. While in the mid 1960s, the US was fighting hard to make its citizens accept that whites and blacks were equal thru an anti-segregation amendment, in other countries around the world, governments were working on a universal health plan to better care for their citizens.

In regard of McCarthy, sure they did find a few commie spies. The same way spies were found in every other country of the world, but without going over civil rights. How many good American civilians had their life destroyed just because they were "Suspected"? That was part of the dak era in American history. Would you believe that anyone not driving an American car was suspected of being a commie spy? Yeah Sure. That makes a lot of commies on this forum.

Lee, you simply don't understand the terms and what they mean. Socialism is the act of socializing the means of production. From the dictionary:

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

If you take the entire medical system and make it owned by the state, that's socialism. If you destroy the private insurance companies and start an "insurance" system completely owned by the government, that's socialism. If the government owns portions of a private company, that's socialism. We have a mixed system here in the US and it is more so in Canada. It is also very socialist government in Japan.

What I am trying to do, and what many others are trying to do, is to stop the spread of more socialism and get this country back into the hands of the people. Because if anything in history has shown conclusively, it is that socialism puts the ownership in the government's hands and not the people's hands.

What you fail to see, because you are not willing to understand, is that democracy and socialism can exist at exactly the same time. There are monarchies that are socialist. Dictatorships can be socialist. What the US has is a republic that employs many socialist tendencies. Socialism is a means of economic control. It is not a form of government. However, it can lead to absolute power for the elite leadership that has been elected.

Now, you need to open your eyes, do a bit of reading on economics and how things work, and you'll understand that you don't know what you are talking about right now. You never have known what you are talking about.

If you are for socialism, be proud and say so. Say that you think it is better for the government to control the means of production. Let those smart people in government take care of you and tell you what prices to charge for your products and what to pay your employees. Quit being a wimp and stand up for what you believe in.

Quit waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffles footing around with telling us a socialist medical system is better. You're missing the point and arguing minutia when you should be looking at the big picture. Are you for socialism or against it? That is the question here. It isn't about medical care at all.

I'll also say this: I don't care if some universal health care system does provide more coverage to more people and that it ends up that the direct costs to individuals is less than it is now (it can't possibly end up that way, but for the sake of argument, let's pretend it's possible). I would still be 100% against it. Why? Because it is socialism and socialism is bad economics. It will make us all (worldwide) less wealthy in the long run. And even if the direct costs to individuals was less, the overall cost to society would be insanely higher than it is now. And I'm not talking just about money in your pocket either.

We are going completely in the wrong direction with all of this. When people are scared, they want somebody to step in and save them. It doesn't matter if it makes no sense and being saved in this way damns you to eternal servitude. People just want the bad stuff to go away so they don't have to think about it. Well, socialism and government intervention in the economy IS the bad thing. If we get more of it, all I can say is we'll be getting what we deserve for being so stupid.

[Hallen]

Wait, Oman is a socialist country? :|

More importantly, has anyone else noticed the recent trend that any time a poll or assembly of statistics is presented, someone now always says "well these numbers weren't gathered exactly the same way, so the study is completely worthless and thus proves the completely opposite viewpoint which happens to be mine"?

You have to pass the stink test. In other words, if it sounds totally out of whack, there is a good chance that it is. Do you really beleive that the medical capability in the US is worse than Greece or Chile? Give me a break. Just on a general perusal of that list, it is clear that there is something wrong. Then you dig in, and read other reports that use the SAME DATA, and back it up with evidence, and then you see the real picture emerge.

If this list were real, why do people not travel to Chile for their colonoscopies?

[ck_taft325is]

You have to pass the stink test. In other words, if it sounds totally out of whack, there is a good chance that it is. Do you really beleive that the medical capability in the US is worse than Greece or Chile? Give me a break. Just on a general perusal of that list, it is clear that there is something wrong. Then you dig in, and read other reports that use the SAME DATA, and back it up with evidence, and then you see the real picture emerge.

If this list were real, why do people not travel to Chile for their colonoscopies?

Have my babies.

Every response to Hallen is something along the lines of deference. A shifting of the topic to avoid answering anything he's asked. Constant avoidance or simple, pithy responses that are along the lines of: "I feel it should be this way because [enter half assed argument]"

C'mon, look at the facts. To exclusively point the lights at Health Care, these countries that are listed are not leading research in the medical field nor is EVERYONE taken care of like everyone for Govt. run Health Care seems to think everyone will be. In this over all debate, one side thinks self responsibility and choice is the way to be (what our Country was founded on) and the other seems to truly believe that it's the Government's job to take care of us. That costs you your free will to choose what you wish to do with what you earn, believe, think, feel and speak. The first step in castrating our free will and choice is Political Correctness. The next step is them forcing us to believe and continually telling us we need them. That continues and grows. Suddenly there's more programs than there are people. The only jobs are Government jobs. The only voices are Government voices. I am not a Child. I am not dependant on this System. I believe in this Country, but I do not believe in this Government telling me who I am, what I do, where my place is, how I think, pray or view the world. At the end it comes down to people wanting someone to take care of them. That's a sad fucking state of affairs... and of course the Government is willing. As soon as you want them to take care of you, they own you. They have say in everything you do.

This movement and affinity for Socialism has been sold to the majority as something it is not. And people have given up their reasoning in favor of feeling secure not even realizing what they gave up.

To equate Government Nation Health Care (Socialism) to segregation of the black minority is a fucking insult. It's spitting in the face of everyone who stood up for their freedom. One deals specifically in legislation that upholds the Constitution and another the eradication through words like, "reform" and "amendment".

It's a ludicrous claim to say they are even close to one in the same...

[gwb72tii]

Have my babies.

Every response to Hallen is something along the lines of deference. A shifting of the topic to avoid answering anything he's asked. Constant avoidance or simple, pithy responses that are along the lines of: "I feel it should be this way because [enter half assed argument]"

C'mon, look at the facts. To exclusively point the lights at Health Care, these countries that are listed are not leading research in the medical field nor is EVERYONE taken care of like everyone for Govt. run Health Care seems to think everyone will be. In this over all debate, one side thinks self responsibility and choice is the way to be (what our Country was founded on) and the other seems to truly believe that it's the Government's job to take care of us. That costs you your free will to choose what you wish to do with what you earn, believe, think, feel and speak. The first step in castrating our free will and choice is Political Correctness. The next step is them forcing us to believe and continually telling us we need them. That continues and grows. Suddenly there's more programs than there are people. The only jobs are Government jobs. The only voices are Government voices. I am not a Child. I am not dependant on this System. I believe in this Country, but I do not believe in this Government telling me who I am, what I do, where my place is, how I think, pray or view the world. At the end it comes down to people wanting someone to take care of them. That's a sad fucking state of affairs... and of course the Government is willing. As soon as you want them to take care of you, they own you. They have say in everything you do.

This movement and affinity for Socialism has been sold to the majority as something it is not. And people have given up their reasoning in favor of feeling secure not even realizing what they gave up.

To equate Government Nation Health Care (Socialism) to segregation of the black minority is a fucking insult. It's spitting in the face of everyone who stood up for their freedom. One deals specifically in legislation that upholds the Constitution and another the eradication through words like, "reform" and "amendment".

It's a ludicrous claim to say they are even close to one in the same...

my god

from one south puget sounder to another

a big +1

IMHO if the government would get out of the way we'd all be better off

i'm also wondering what lee is going to do once we start buying up all those cheap government subsidized drugs offered in canada?

[mrsleeve]

Hallen, guy with the fat presidents name:

+fucking eleventybillion

[LBJefferies]

You know what, I agree with everything you guys say.

I guess it's a question of quality or quantity. On one side you have high quality health care with less to go around, and on the other side you have lower quality health care with more to go around.

[ck_taft325is]

Hallen, guy with the fat presidents name:

+fucking eleventybillion

[z31maniac]

You know what, I agree with everything you guys say.

I guess it's a question of quality or quantity. On one side you have high quality health care with less to go around, and on the other side you have lower quality health care with more to go around.

And you have now hit the crux of why everyone is so pissed.

I'm with Hallen on being against Socialism, but even if you ignore the big picture of the control they are trying to take with Healthcare and "Climate Change" (and they are both about controlling our lives, don't fool yourself for a second that it's anything else) you can boil it down to one question.

Why should I have to pay more for a lower standard of care than I currently receive?

[mrsleeve]

Is hOlmes giving up or just trolling more???


NO way he as to be kidding.

And you have now hit the crux of why everyone is so pissed.

I'm with Hallen on being against Socialism, but even if you ignore the big picture of the control they are trying to take with Healthcare and "Climate Change" (and they are both about controlling our lives, don't fool yourself for a second that it's anything else) you can boil it down to one question.

Why should I have to pay more for a lower standard of care than I currently receive?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Winner

[Pinepig]

Why should I have to pay more for a lower standard of care than I currently receive?

Because welfare hood rats need 26s on their Monte Carlo and can't afford both.:hitler:

[LowR3V'in]

Obama is doing it for his peeps.