Dear Southern States

[u3b3rg33k]

Take it, please come and take it. I don't own snow tires nor a FWD daily driver. Most of our cities don't have salt. We are helpless.

I wish we didn't use salt here. It eats my poor cars.

Thinking that front wheel drive helps seems misguided. It's all in the shoes, knowing what momentum is, and how to apply it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k7I8O1oGIQ

Too bad you don't have snow tires. I want your snow, so I can play some more.

[dashboardmonkey]

^that looks like fun

[u3b3rg33k]

It is. I take the long way home (the other three sides of the square) when it snows.

I managed to find a road that was one lane wide due to snow drifts. I only wish I had the camera on me then.

[HarryPotter]

Snow? What is this?

[sweetride01]

By your own definition there, it's GLOBAL COOLING, hence Climate Change has been introduced as a BRAND SPANKING SPECTACULAR NEW politically correct term for changes in our environment. The scientific logic you used in that paragraph was the approach scientists used to predict Nuclear Winter. Global Warming would be radiation getting trapped under greenhouse gases and not escape our atmosphere. There, two opposite ideologies divided by ~20 years. History is full of famines associated with "climate changes".

How am I implying global cooling? Clearly, if there is more heat getting trapped in the atmosphere, the Earth will warm...

Here's a cool little graph of CO2 levels I found:


As you can see, current CO2 levels are way above the levels seen in any of the past interglacial periods.

And here are the corresponding ice levels and temperature changes... evidently, if one were to plot the two graphs together, it would be very easy to see that CO2 levels vary along with temperature and ice volume:

Weather guys are wrong often, because there's still a lot to learn about weather patterns. They generalize a very broad science for very large territories and every probability law is stacked against them being 100% accurate. Also don't act like there were never hurricanes, tornadoes, tsunamis, floods, earthquakes or any other natural disasters. Every culture has stories of really bad-ass disasters. Every culture has widespread panic and eventual societal downturn. It took centuries and millennia and people have been able to figure out some of the events using factual science.

I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to make here. Firstly, I don't deny that there is a lot to learn about climate and weather patterns... but a lot of what weather guys do is base predictions using computer weather models, which themselves are based on past events and knowledge. As time passes, therefore, models should become more accurate. However, El Niño (and La Niña), while not fully understood, display a well documented pattern of ocean warming in some parts of the Pacific, and cooling in others, not to mention the numerous changes in climate associated with these unusual temperature distributions.
You say that "It took centuries and millennia and people have been able to figure out some of the events using factual science"... Yes, it did take a long time to figure out what causes many of the natural occurances (such as tornadoes and earthquakes) that happen in the Earth System... but most discoveries have been made in the past 100 years or so... due in large part to things like a vast array of new monitoring and measuring equipment, the increase in the Earth's population (more minds to come up with answers), and the fact that human knowledge doubles every 10 years or so, based on some estimates.....

AND, before you make such a case for scientists and against oil companies, remember this. NO INDUSTRY EMPLOYS MORE GRADUATE DEGREES THAN OIL INDUSTRY. In other words, there are more scientist working with oil than there are scientists working in environmental fields. Start from drilling that requires geologist, environmentalists, biologists and a massive amount of engineers. Then there's transportation and distribution side of it. There are millions of oil derivatives and by-product based industries. Nearly entire step of the way industry employs very highly educated people. In fact, a lot of times to get an engineering position with some of the bigger oil companies, PH.D. is a requirement.

Perhaps you should focus on what you just said. "No Industry Employs More Graduate Degrees Than the Oil Industry"... why's that? Maybe, because they have lots of money to employ people... maybe, because some of these clever scientists can help the oil industry to find more oil, and more money. How does this make the oil industry good? The Nazis employed plenty of scientists in order to perfect the mixture and delivery method of Zyklon B in order to gas millions of people.
So, yes, it's true, the oil industry does employ a good number of engineers and scientists, but not due to charity; in fact, the reason for this is simply because they have a lot of money, and the only reason that they CAN make this money these days is due to scientists and engineers performing all sorts of calculations allowing them to exploit the Earth's waning resources.

I am not saying there's no such thing as Climate Change. There is. Climate always changes. It globally warms up and globally cools down. What I am saying is, we can't take every cookie idea someone has and follow it blindly, because it's mainstream at the time.

Agreed. But, I wouldn't call climate change "mainstream"... it was proposed back in the 90s, but thanks to the likes of oil industry lobbyists during the Bush administration, these ideas were suppressed, especially in the USA.

Every scientist can agree with a theory, but it takes real scientific studies over time. Ice samples from North and South poles show Earth's environmental changes over thousands of years. They show severe climate changes even before humans became such parasites. Distorted, out of context bar and pie-charts are thrown out there by every group and rarely match.

See above ^^^ I think you'll find they do match. There's plenty of other good data out there, too.

Then there are companies that bluntly misconstrue the data to promote "green" products, even when they're bigger environmental devastators (hybrids, number of recyclers, great number of "alternative" energies).

I have to agree with you entirely on this one. As always, if a buck can be made, then someone is going to jump on the profit bandwagon, taking advantage of people's ignorance to the full range of environmental factors involved. Even textbook authors, such as Dan Chiras (whom admittedly, I believe, generally knows what he's talking about) went and bought a Toyota Prius, and mentions it far more in his textbook on environmental science than he does diesel vehicles...

I am all for recycling, I am all for conservation of resources, and I am 100% for alternative energy, but I am against using Climate Change as an excuse to do what should be common sense to some people or be a life choice for others. This self-righteousness and self-awareness that comes from mass media and not from scientific reassurance and evidence is nothing short of hypochondria.

Sure, that's fair enough... but the media likes to blow up any issue they can, as they make more money off of scaring people these days than informing them. However, this doesn't mean that the case for climate change is any less true, just because the media are propounding it. As far as making changes to habits, such as recycling, unless someone (mainly the government, I suppose) gets the message across that landfill is bad, as are CO2 emissions, then it's not an issue many people want to deal with, as making some of the changes to lifestyle required to cut these forms of environmental pollution causes people hassle... furthermore, many people do not currently feel their negative effects.

This has nothing to do with political or religious views. Media and politicians depend on anecdotal evidence to sway public's opinion and it forces people to become self-conscious to the point of panic. I am against sheep panicking, because people going extreme over climate, in my eyes, aren't any better than pricks on the corner yelling "God hates fags".

I would hardly say that most people in the USA, or the world indeed, are self-consious, or panicky, about environmental issues such as climate change. This is what the media might like you to think.
Nor are people (for the most part) going "extreme" over climate issues... but it is possible that if new goals for reducing pollution and CO2 emissions (and the resulting methane emissions due to things like melting permafrost) are not set out and put into effect, then we might indeed be "at the point of no return" when it comes to negative climate change, resulting in unknown consequences for the world's population and climate (although things like continued sea level rise are almost certain).

AND SOMEONE PLEASE TAKE ALL THIS SNOW, so I can go to work tomorrow without drift lessons.

Hey, it's all good practice :-)

I was enjoying the snow here the other day until I slipped and fell and possibly broke my coccyx...

[sweetride01]

Didn't even think this would start a debate, but all weather threads seem to break down into one sooner or later.

Meh, as a budding environmental scientist, I need to get plenty of practice in both communicating information and debating key issues...

:-)

[scabzzzz]

I do want or need this snow. Luke, whats your address? I'll ship it back to you...

[nando]

FWIW, Global warming doesnt mean hotter, everywhere, all the time.

From what i gather, its more extreme weather conditions. Like where the FUCK is winter here in seattle?

it's an El Niño year. are you new to the area or something? it happens every ~5 years exactly like this.

[sweetride01]

it's an El Niño year. are you new to the area or something? it happens every ~5 years exactly like this.

Well, 5-8, but yeah. I think some of the guys on here are too young to remember the last big one :p

[Aptyp]

Here's a cool little graph of CO2 levels I found:


As you can see, current CO2 levels are way above the levels seen in any of the past interglacial periods.

And here are the corresponding ice levels and temperature changes... evidently, if one were to plot the two graphs together, it would be very easy to see that CO2 levels vary along with temperature and ice volume:

So what causes that cataclysmic drop in CO2 levels? And while we're here, use those charts to explain weather we're experiencing global warming or global cooling? Because that seems to change every few decades.

Oh an read your description of global warming earlier, you do have it backwards. Radiation creates heat when it's trapped under CO2, not when it bounces off into space before heating Earth's surface.

Perhaps you should focus on what you just said. "No Industry Employs More Graduate Degrees Than the Oil Industry"... why's that? Maybe, because they have lots of money to employ people... maybe, because some of these clever scientists can help the oil industry to find more oil, and more money. How does this make the oil industry good? The Nazis employed plenty of scientists in order to perfect the mixture and delivery method of Zyklon B in order to gas millions of people.
So, yes, it's true, the oil industry does employ a good number of engineers and scientists, but not due to charity; in fact, the reason for this is simply because they have a lot of money, and the only reason that they CAN make this money these days is due to scientists and engineers performing all sorts of calculations allowing them to exploit the Earth's waning resources.

I never said oil companies were good. They employ the best and the brightest and for that are rewarded with a lot of money. That's good. And the reason oil companies employ so many scientist is because they want to make the most money they can make. Oil companies strive to be as "green" as they can possibly be, because it's efficient. They'll drill once, instead of a dozen. They do everything to minimize contamination, because that's lost oil/profit. They do everything they can to prolong their equipment longevity. If you look at how Saudi's oil drilling is operated, you'll see how truly amazing these systems are at being "green". There's a lot less environmental devastation associated with drilling opposed to "clean" coal. There's a lot less environmental devastation associated with burning fossil fuels opposed to storing nuclear waste (at least for now). And yes oil companies make so much money employing the best of the best and that's the best part, because hiring the best people in their fields allows them to accomplish everything.


Just to show you how mainstream "green" movement is, look at how many politicians still openly oppose Global Warming. It's wired in with American people, that if a person opposes "green" movement, he's somehow less intelligent. People religiously vote on principles of climate change and opposition of oil companies.




I like talking to you, it's refreshing having a conversation on r3v with out name calling and bashing.

[Aptyp]

I wish we didn't use salt here. It eats my poor cars.

Thinking that front wheel drive helps seems misguided. It's all in the shoes, knowing what momentum is, and how to apply it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k7I8O1oGIQ

Too bad you don't have snow tires. I want your snow, so I can play some more.

where in wisconsin are you??? My parents live in Milwaukee.


and yes, Eagle F1 tires in 225 and 245 sizes suck in snow... and rain... and any time there isn't good dry pavement.

Wow, we're promised wintry mix tonight, then Friday/Saturday and again next Tuesday. Looking forward to getting pulled out of ditch at some point.

[funcrew]

It has been unusually pleasant in Las Vegas this winter. Even got a week of drizzle, the longest stretch on record.

[SpecM]

Wow, we're promised wintry mix tonight, then Friday/Saturday and again next Tuesday. Looking forward to getting pulled out of ditch at some point.

oh that's just great

I hate driving in snow. I'm glad I have a FWD Camry with newish Michelin MXV4's...

cuz my e30 has summer tires. That don't grip snow

At all

[Beastolizer]

I agree with everything sweetride01 has said so far. I think he seems to be one of the few that understands its NOT "global warming," it's global climate change. What is occurring is changing weather patterns due to rising green house gases. It used to be that you could expect an El Nino every 10 or so years, with a La Nina about 4 years after the El Nino. since 2000, I believe we have had about 4 El Ninos, and If I remember correctly, NO La Nina's.

All weather revolves around the oceans. They are the cause of everything and if the ocean is warming, weather conditions around the world are going to change, hence the snow in states that hardly ever see it.

Apytyp, don't get your panties in a bundle, I'm just voicing my opinion on this.

[nando]

wusses. I drove 5 miles home from work in 6" of snow on R888s. :p