So Virginia bans O-Care

[ck_taft325is]

In so many words, yes. And this is PRECISELY the philosophical gap between the two sides that will never be bridged at any summit.

We can try and try to make healthcare affordable for all, but I personally don't see it as a possibility... at least at the level that would precipitate a "healthy" society. Should society fill that gap (through taxes)?

It's a personal position of social obligation.

Income/wealth isn't always directly correlated to how hard one works. It's unfortunate that it often times dictates ones quality of life.

I agree 100% that it's seemingly, mostly, a "battle" if you will, of ideals. The rub in this is that this Country was not founded on that sentiment to my understanding. While social obligation can and should be a personal preference, when does Government involvment for you become to much? (Note: for you and your personal convictions)

I don't believe through my experiences in life that the hazy waters of moral or social obligations can be required or enforced by a Governing power. The very act of requiring it, ruins the moral/social sacrifice of an individual. Furthermore does not the threat of a penalty (fines, imprisonment, levies, etc etc...) if one does not uphold the moral/social sacrificial "norm" demean or reduce the action into nothing more than half hearted obedience?

[KenC]

Yes I value freedom and feel that small and less intrusive govt is good for all. I guess that makes me weird


THE MEDI's payments in most instances are 1 slow and 2 not enough to cover the raw cost of the services/procedure rendered. For a Care facility to be eligible for public dollars/grants for up grades, new technology, new/improved facilities, etc... they have to take MEDI patients, there for have to take what ever the govt will pay for those services.

Now the private H.I. industry uses the govt MEDI programs payment scale as a bench mark for their own negotiated rates (they dont get it but thats what they shoot for).

So thanks to govt intrusion and not paying its way H.C. providers must jack the rates to both the private H.I. companies and walk in retail pay their own way customers to recoup the losses form all the Medi patients. They have to inflate the cost that they show the H.I. companies so the new negotiated price will still allow them to make enough money to keep the lights on, make up the diff for all the those that cant pay and the Medis short payment.

This has all lead to the explosion of H.C. costs, you can thank the Govt for it as it is now, and you want to give total control of the system they fucked up in the 1st place and think the result will be different????? Or even different than what has happend in ever other country that has tried it?????

So would your solution be to increase funds available to Medicare, thereby increasing reimbursement rates? Or to abolish Medicare completely?

[KenC]

I agree 100% that it's seemingly, mostly, a "battle" if you will, of ideals. The rub in this is that this Country was not founded on that sentiment to my understanding. While social obligation can and should be a personal preference, when does Government involvment for you become to much? (Note: for you and your personal convictions)

I don't believe through my experiences in life that the hazy wates of moral or social obligations can be required. The very act of requiring it, ruins the moral or social benefit/sacrifice.

I'm not sure I undestant what you're saying in the second paragraph.

[ck_taft325is]

I'm not sure I undestant what you're saying in the second paragraph.

That's because it was poorly worded and rushed. Sorry about that, I'll correct it once I get yonder kiddo washed up.

[E30 Cabrio]

So then you support the health insurance mandate?

Your red-herrings are stinkin' up the thread.

[E30 Cabrio]

It's only the best if you can afford it.

Almost everyone can afford it.

But many of those who claim they can't aren't making it a priority.

Expensive Cell phones, big screen LCD TV's, Bling, 22" wheels and other frivolous purchases seem to trump the necessities for some people.

[mrsleeve]

So would your solution be to increase funds available to Medicare, thereby increasing reimbursement rates? Or to abolish Medicare completely?

LOL I see what you did there.

Yes either or would be a means to an end, then you are left with either huge tax burden on those of means or millions of people more that would not be able to get care any longer. Neither scenario is a good one

this would only be a small but crucial part of a reform bill, and only because we are stuck with it and have been for a long time
1) better oversight of the current medi payment system to eliminate more of the fraud,
2) small increase in the payroll tax for medi but only if necessary and caped at 2% increase total
3) increase payments to cover the costs of services rendered.

this will allow HC providers to lower their prices to both H.I. and privet customers thus bring down the cost over all. If there is 3 trillion in care provided in this country overall then 3 trillion needs to come in. and a major player is not paying its bills, then that company would not be in business long, but since that player is the govt and cant be refused as a payer, the short fall is again passed right back to the general consumer and taxpayer to make up the differences when we go in for care with our premiums and outta pocket expense.

Other things are allowing individuals buy into the larger pools ( you know the ones that bigger employers have for their employees) there by lowering their over all cost on the open market.

Set up minimum standard coverages that work every were in the country no matter the state you live in and can go outta state to buy into such plans like auto insurance. This would not necessary eliminate the better options of your plan while giving every one options for what they can afford form catastrophic to total comprehensive coverage.

eliminate the strangle hold that some H.I. companies have on states and allow open and direct competition

Tort reform a common sense reform

eliminate the govts direct involvement with it let the people and their HC providers decide what they need and dont need.

You cant force some one to buy something.

I dont know I am no expert by any means, I just think there are much better ways to do this. the bill thats being ramed though dose none of this and now has education reform attached to it WTF dose that have to do with H.C.

[KenC]

Your red-herrings are stinkin' up the thread.

I can't tell if that was sarcastic or not... and I had to google "red-herring" haha.

Wasn't the insurance mandate the entire point of the thread?

[ck_taft325is]

They weren't special circumstances. They were to you, yes, and most people don't go through that. However, they were not by any distance special circumstances to the medical care facilities that treated you. "Someone paid" is shortsighted. Realistically, the hospital had to absorb the cost by suing another patient for their unpaid bills and jacking up insco prices on services, and this happens every day.

If you didn't know, ERs and other treatment centers have an "insured" price and a "uninsured" price. One of my close friends tore her meniscus and had to go to the ER for a cast and crutches. When they found out she didn't have insurance, $200 crutches magically became $20 crutches, and other costs dropped astronomically or disappeared. Basically, to make up for people who can't pay bills at all, the hospital adds on charges to people who have insurance, which in turn raises insurance rates. I don't see a way private, free-market insurance can remedy this.

I didn't address this issue previously but would like to upon further thought. Wouldn't have the insurance of my Pops, if it had been accepted, helped relieve the "burden" of their "uninsured" price? That they didn't, couldn't or would not accept his insurance (even though I was claimed as a dependant for that portion of the year) ultimately "my" fault as an "uninsured" person? This seems to me, a State/Federal Government regulation that should go away if it is so.

[E30 Cabrio]

Even if this passes, I doubt the SCOTUS will uphold it as it is unconstitutional for the Government to force people to buy health insurance.

But then, the Dems are making up the rules as they go along:

[ck_taft325is]

I think the analogy of Car insurance being mandatory is a fantastic example... I agree with it. 100%.

Because I can choose not to drive, and therefore, not have to pay for car insurance. See, regardless of what a personal social obligation one may feel, and many good things can come from this sense of well-to-do, it is a personal conviction.

You might not agree with this, KenC, but what you're talking about, and your ideal that you feel and/or think should be obligated upon society, even if it is for society to prosper, is not much unlike historical Catholicism or Christianity... while you do it without the "religion" aspect, you still think (from what I gather of your ideals) that there is a social obligation the Government should impose on society to better the whole? This is a question, and not intended to offend. I just see stark similarities in how you view the Government's role while more than likely simultaniously (and if I'm off the mark here, please correct me) brow beating those "crazy right wing Bible thumping Christians" (Note: Not your words, but the sentiment carries across). I wouldn't say ironic, but more an observation over the past couple pages of relative civil debate.

I'm still trying to figure out where everyone's coming from. And there's some good questions posed by everyone.

Let me recap:

We all agree Health Care needs reform - yes?
We disagree with the how - yes?
What and where do we disagree?
- Proposed by Ken is that it's a matter of ideals. I'm very much interested in hearing some on the question I posed above and your thoughts on it.

From the past few pages, it seems that a lot of the Democrats, and this is probably a large majority of the "rub", believe this bill, THIS reform is the only way. While the Republicans, even just on this board seemed to have brought up several different methods. Any more on this from those for this bill as to why or how what (for example) Mr.Sleeve brought up?

[BlueBMW]

Expensive Cell phones, big screen LCD TV's, Bling, 22" wheels and other frivolous purchases seem to trump the necessities for some people.

And things like turbochargers... itbs... performance chips... awesome wheels and everything else an E30 needs. Now those ARE necessities! :D

[kronus]

I think the analogy of Car insurance being mandatory is a fantastic example... I agree with it. 100%.

Because I can choose not to drive, and therefore, not have to pay for car insurance.

You can't choose to not get injured. Driving is a privilege, car insurance is a mandatory cost of having the privilege of driving (in this country, at least).

[robrez]

Well, long story short, we got jumped by a gang of about 15 guys.
My medical bills after all was "fixed" (for what it could be) amounted to nearly $348,589.
I had no insurance.

I still paid much of my savings ($8,000) towards medical bills. After that, I recieved an invoice of total expenses and my owed debt was zero'd out.

The fact is though, I don't hold health insurance high on my priority list. I have a modest savings to cover the kid and wife. Would this cover a severe injury or ill-ness?

Would it be a sacrifice? Yup. Hugely. I'd drop the S2.79 I have in the garage in the 318is and sell all the pretty crap off it.

Dude, You got beat down to tune the of $348k, skated on $340k, no collections, no bad credit, no lifelong debt, no bankruptcy. Oh, wait, but yours was a special situation, so it's all good? And now you're setting yourself up for another bail-out the next time you or your immediate family have a significant medical issue. Oh wait, but you're gonna sell your e30, so it will all be good again.

Sorry, I'm not just being a douche. I feel for your situation. But I don't see how your experience supports the anti-Obamacare argument one lick. If anything, you are the poster-boy for the need of Obamacare.

[ck_taft325is]

Dude, You got beat down to tune the of $348k, skated on $340k, no collections, no bad credit, no lifelong debt, no bankruptcy. Oh, wait, but yours was a special situation, so it's all good? And now you're setting yourself up for another bail-out the next time you or your immediate family have a significant medical issue. Oh wait, but you're gonna sell your e30, so it will all be good again.


You already are, see above.

Sorry, I'm not just being a douche. I feel for your situation. But I don't see how your experience supports the anti-Obamacare argument one lick. If anything, you are the poster-boy for the need of Obamacare.

I'm not sure that's the only reason (ER Visits) for the high cost of Health Care. I'm not saying it doesn't contribute, but it's not the sole reason. As for my circumstance, again, I paid for my ER visit out of pocket. I'll take the hit on being "the drain on society" by getting my face fixed. I could have not, honestly. To be honest, I was completely not in the know for how anything worked. I was under the (misguided) impression that violent crimes got covered by prosecuting the offender. As in, state pays right off the bat, pursues the offender for compensation. It may sound naive, but I was 17. How smart were you when you were 17? And you didn't even address the issue with the having insurance but it wasn't accepted (again, all for Health care reform on this front).

For as much as I hate defending myself on this, I just want to point out that I have a savings. I would again, pay out of pocket for an Emergency. It's my choice and right to not have insurance. While crazy to some, I grew up without it.

The above statement does not mean I refuse to have it. If I can't afford it now, I will when things pick up. I don't need it spoon fed to me by the Chocolate Messiah and Co.

Know how many times I've been to the ER? Once without insurance. That is why I say "special" circumstance. I'd gladly pay what I could towards that debt. I asked, at the age of 17 with no job, post traumatic stress disorder and a severely bruised ego what my minimums would be towards that $350,000 debt.

A drain on the system, is repeat offenders running to the ER because they caught the flu. I do take offense at the idea of "skating" my debt. You want monetary compensation? Get the fucking SA-PD to do their fucking job and catch some of these little waffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffleswaffless. Maybe, just maybe if they did their fucking job a bit better and patrolled high gang activity areas I wouldn't have had to "skate" my health debt. The funniest part is, when the officer was taking my report in the ER while I was leaking vital fluids like a broke fire hydrant, I mentioned where I was when it happend. Know what he said? "Oh, wait... we got a call about 20 people fighting in the street down there. We figured it would take care of itself" - want a fucking problem? THAT's a fucking problem.

And for the record, I was insured, you fucking twat. They didn't take it because of Government regulations and strangle holds on the system. Eat a dick, cock mongler.