So Virginia bans O-Care

[ck_taft325is]

That's one of the pink elephants in my mind... really just looks like super-medicaid renamed and sold as a great "free" system. This doesn't seem to really help anyone or lower costs but sounds FANTASTIC. Of course Free sounds good, but in reality, you get what you pay for. At least, this is the case with nearly everything. They are saying one thing, but the FACTS (not personal view points, philosophy, etc) are not lining up with what they are saying. Senator Boehmer nailed it in his appeal to the House.

The fact that Democrats went about this whole Health Care reform issue the way they did is indicitive of their intentions in my book. The things said by the Democrats are astounding.

I wish more Democrats could speak in facts. KenC is a good guy to talk to and I love reading what he says as he at least stays honest that he feels Government should regulate and/or inforce Social Morality through taxation.

I'm 14 brews into reading this debacle of a "law". I agree with Hallen. Pelosi should be locked the fuck up. What a fucking nut-case, psycho, man-eating bitch.

I'd love to hear more from you, Johnwoo. PM's or otherwise.

And I've ridden in a car put together with pretty much a hammer and vise grips. It was a short trip to the end of the driveway...

[johnwoo]

Thanks, John for posting on this. Very appreciated.

It'll be ignored by the "believers" though, so don't be surprised if none of them respond in an intelligent way.

no problem i usually try to stay clear of these topics as i become very passionate and easily irritated by others when it comes to this topic.

people need to realize that doctors are there to tell you what you don't have and not what you have. any monkey can tell you that your sick or that you have a sore throat but you go to the doctor to tell you that your sore throat isn't strep or that your fever and cough isn't pneumonia. medicaid is notorious for restricting what physicians can order in terms of tests (xrays, ct, mri, echo). some of these tests are ordered to cover doctors asses in case of litigation which is where tort reform should have been made to stop frivolous medical litigation and curtail expensive tests.
other tests are there for doctors to rule out those catastrophic conditions. this bill is an extended medicaid meaning those same restrictions on tests will now be applied on a wider scale. so now less tests will be ordered and more pathology would be missed. all the same time medical lawyers will be watching over physician's backs to make sure they are doing the right thing. maybe that bowel obstruction was due to a big old pile of poo or it could be due to a huge cancer without the right test physicians wouldn't be able to tell.

here's an analogy for all us e30 guys. its like doing a s52 swap will all of your tools (air tools, lift, sockets, etc.) now take everything away but a hammer and a wrench. can it be done....possibly would it be done correctly? and safely? i wouldn't want to ride in it.

[ck_taft325is]

Thanks, John for posting on this. Very appreciated.

It'll be ignored by the "believers" though, so don't be surprised if none of them respond in an intelligent way.

[johnwoo]

there are all very valid opinions and points being made in this thread. i work in the hc industry and i am completely against this bill. i believe this bill is a step backwards in helping reform the system. lots of things were ignored by this law, and i don't mean by the public option, not having a public option was one of the few good points of this bill. however not addressing tort reform was a mistake and restricting and handcuffing physicians even more is only going to result in a lower quality of care. there is only ONE guarantee in this bill. the QUALITY of healthcare that we all have been accustomed to and have all taken granted for will suffer and decline. and there will be RATIONING of care. the unintended consequences of this bill will be mind boggling and will be more far reaching than the bill itself.

[ck_taft325is]

Are you just fucking stupid or what? Do you know anything about health reform? The public option is needed to control costs. Without it insurance companies can charge whatever they want. This is especially true now that they no longer have to keep prices down to attract customers because the government just forced every American citizen to become a customer.

So you have opinions and don't listen to facts or just completely ignore Hallen? I think he's responded to you on every front and yet you say the same thing over and over again.

[ck_taft325is]

I'm just getting drunk.

[rwh11385]

That's two completely different concepts, pal. A public "option" (which can't be an option btw, it's like the Highlander, there can only be one. So, the word option is stupid in this context), is an insurance plan that we are forced to use. It has NOTHING to do with controlling COSTS of health care. What it can do is completely control how much each of us pays for health insurance (which will be a variable rate, or tax, based off of how much you earn. This is something insurance companies can't do because it's illegal. Makes you wonder, huh?). What it can do is force medical providers to accept lower payments for services. But it cannot control costs.

It will force care providers to cut services because they won't make enough on their public plan payments to continue to provide what they do now (even not for profit groups). Therefore, care and treatment options will have to go down, by necessity and/or the number of care facilities will have to go down meaning problems getting care when you need it.

You can argue that this would cause medical companies to get innovative and find ways of doing this cheaper, keep care and availability up where we want it. But this is simply unrealistic. Nothing has changed in regulations or requirement that the government mandates. Nothing can really change in how these institutions operate. Malpractice suits will still flourish. All the other stupid things in the system will still exist. These can't be changed because the idiots who put these things into play can't back out of them because they put them into play to "protect" us and to insure quality. All they really did was to insure that it costs a lot.

The insurance companies aren't evil, as much as people try to make them out to be that way. They've been vilified by the left for a purpose. Sure, they do dumb things and they can be a pain to work with, but instead of fixing those problems, we've just introduced a whole bunch more. We want choice, we want competition (according to Obama), but what we'll get is neither.

I'm glad you see that the current plan will raise insurance costs. That won't be by the choice of the insurance companies. That will be because of government regulation. Regulation isn't the answer, it is the problem.

Amen. h0lmes is an idiot, along with all the other warm-hearted, empty-headed lefties.

Democrats attack anything with money, first the wealthy, then oil companies, then healthcare, who is next?

[Hallen]

Are you just fucking stupid or what? Do you know anything about health reform? The public option is needed to control costs. Without it insurance companies can charge whatever they want. This is especially true now that they no longer have to keep prices down to attract customers because the government just forced every American citizen to become a customer.

That's two completely different concepts, pal. A public "option" (which can't be an option btw, it's like the Highlander, there can only be one. So, the word option is stupid in this context), is an insurance plan that we are forced to use. It has NOTHING to do with controlling COSTS of health care. What it can do is completely control how much each of us pays for health insurance (which will be a variable rate, or tax, based off of how much you earn. This is something insurance companies can't do because it's illegal. Makes you wonder, huh?). What it can do is force medical providers to accept lower payments for services. But it cannot control costs.

It will force care providers to cut services because they won't make enough on their public plan payments to continue to provide what they do now (even not for profit groups). Therefore, care and treatment options will have to go down, by necessity and/or the number of care facilities will have to go down meaning problems getting care when you need it.

You can argue that this would cause medical companies to get innovative and find ways of doing this cheaper, keep care and availability up where we want it. But this is simply unrealistic. Nothing has changed in regulations or requirement that the government mandates. Nothing can really change in how these institutions operate. Malpractice suits will still flourish. All the other stupid things in the system will still exist. These can't be changed because the idiots who put these things into play can't back out of them because they put them into play to "protect" us and to insure quality. All they really did was to insure that it costs a lot.

The insurance companies aren't evil, as much as people try to make them out to be that way. They've been vilified by the left for a purpose. Sure, they do dumb things and they can be a pain to work with, but instead of fixing those problems, we've just introduced a whole bunch more. We want choice, we want competition (according to Obama), but what we'll get is neither.

I'm glad you see that the current plan will raise insurance costs. That won't be by the choice of the insurance companies. That will be because of government regulation. Regulation isn't the answer, it is the problem.

[Joey Link]

All the idiots had to do was remove the insurance exemption from the antitrust laws and let the free market do the rest, as it has done in every other field where it was let alone.

[Bimmerman325i]

Well, this settles it.

I'm voting every politician out of office that I can, regardless of party.

Democrats or Republicans, it doesn't matter to me, they both are lying sacks of shit. New leadership is needed across the board. I wish the choice was different from taxation and robbery vs torture and bigotry though.

Also, this reform act is totally unconstitutional. Ironic that not many people/commentators have picked up on that-- the federal government does not have the power to mandate and require citizens to buy/do X. Goes blatantly against the constitution, and is the basis for all the lawsuits being filed by state Attorney Generals.

[fryerfighter94]

...Did this bill just get passed?

[LBJefferies]

Did you actually just say that.

Health care reform can only be done by public option...when do I stop laughing.

Are you just fucking stupid or what? Do you know anything about health reform? The public option is needed to control costs. Without it insurance companies can charge whatever they want. This is especially true now that they no longer have to keep prices down to attract customers because the government just forced every American citizen to become a customer.

[joshh]

Health care reform is useless without a public option. The public option was the key to keeping prices down. Without it, premiums are guaranteed to go up because insurance companies now have to cover people that aren't paying.

Did you actually just say that.

Health care reform can only be done by public option...when do I stop laughing.

[LBJefferies]

Health care reform is useless without a public option. The public option was the key to keeping prices down. Without it, premiums are guaranteed to go up because insurance companies now have to cover people that aren't paying.

[joshh]

Funny how people who like to castigate others for "repeating the same rhetoric" often don't know the true meaning of rhetoric, and they also just use the phrase as a semi-polite way of saying "shut up".

The whole deal with that survey where it showed that people where in favor of the individual parts of the bill, was that they were only asked about some of the things in the bill. Mostly, about the stuff that is perceived as "free" to the voter and that "sticks it to" the insurance companies. Righteous indignation is a wonderful thing, even when it is dead wrong. Oh, and from what I remember, the margins on each individual item were not that high, only a few points. So, your Rhetoric is the same old stuff being spewed by the left, and doesn't have much foundation in reality.

You cannot break up the individual parts of the bill and pole on it and then come back and say that the bill is favored by the majority. It's simply not true. It's a distortion of the facts, intentionally done to influence the feeble minded and those who just aren't paying that much attention. It's dishonest and wrong.

This is a government take over. It really is that simple. It's a government take over of health insurance. Sure, the companies themselves are still privately held, or publicly on the market, but their hands are going to be tied. They will be mandated to provide products that are unsustainable. They will be mandated to do a lot of things that are not conducive to sound business practices. Rates will go up, not down.

But, I'll give you that point. It isn't the government abolishing private insurance in favor of a government only insurance plan. It's a moot point anyway because the bill won't do what the proponents say it will. My fear is that because this bill is doomed to failure, the left will step in once again saying that it is a public mandate for a complete government take over of the medical system. You watch, they will try it.

It is also going to be a horrible tax burden on us all, it will be yet another form of government entitlement that we all have to pay for, and it won't do a damn thing to control health care costs. Tort reform would have been a place to start. But the trial lawyers won out on that one. I'm sure the dem's coffers will be running over with donations from them this year.

Go ahead and cheer and jeer. Your party pushed an unwanted bill through using slimy practices and outright bribes and graft. People should be going to jail. Instead, our President will proudly sign this piece of shit and tell us all that it is something we should all feel good about. What a crock.

Seriously, Pelosi should go to jail over this. Al Capone would have been proud of our Nancy. She can crack kneecaps and grease palms with the best of them.

This will not be the end of it.
Obama will end up making it a public option. That's what he really wants.
He's not the only one already saying this is just the beginning.

I can't wait to say I told them so.