Obama on FOX News at 6PM EST....

[ck_taft325is]

Abortion is still birth control - I don't know how you can deny it. Should it be used as birth control? Not every time, no. However - as stated previously - traditional methods of reversible birth control aren't 100% effective. Every holier than thou soap box jackass on this forum wants to believe that all abortions are the direct result of irresponsibility. This is far from the case.

Is it just me or does every valid point in this thread get disregarded?

You're right, it's only the majority of the cases. It's like saying that all Arabs wear turbins. This is not truth 100% of the time but the fact that 80% of them wear a turbin, it would be more or less plausible to say that all Arabs wear turbins. Split hairs if you will, the fact is when you take something serious like abortion and try to make it less of a big deal or remarkably easy to get one paid for, you'll end up with those who ARE irresponsible, which would be having sex with as many people as possible, as this is VERY irresponsible, having abortions like tic-tacs.

[ck_taft325is]

Uhh...That's a pretty standard arguing point in favor of abortion - or at least in favor of limited abortion. Getting all worked up about it only proves that you know very little about the topic...

Also, wtf do his parents have to do with any of that?

Did you read a thing he ("s0urce") wrote? That was what I was belatedly responding to.

And just for arguements sake, where exactly does your wealth of knowledge powering your opinions come from? Mine comes from personal experience, which in general lends a bit more weight to the whole ordeal as you wouldn't want a Therapist working on your BMW would you?

So, just to clarify, that whatever your parents do you'll follow in their footsteps. Just as say a man rapes a woman the child, if allowed to live will inevitable become a rapist? Am I misunderstanding "s0urce" somewhere?

[Hallen]

Abortion is still birth control - I don't know how you can deny it. Should it be used as birth control? Not every time, no. However - as stated previously - traditional methods of reversible birth control aren't 100% effective. Every holier than thou soap box jackass on this forum wants to believe that all abortions are the direct result of irresponsibility. This is far from the case.

Is it just me or does every valid point in this thread get disregarded?

It's just you.

Except the case of rape, malformed fetus, or extreme health risk to the mother, yes, 100% of all other abortions are the direct result of irresponsibility. It is a choice to have sex. If you are not prepared to have children, then don't have sex. It's that simple.

Yes, I know that is completely unrealistic. That doesn't change the fact that it is irresponsible. Also, we make it seem like it isn't irresponsible if you are using some form of birth control. Well, good for you, that's a wise choice. But these things do fail. If you are not prepared to raise a child, don't have sex.

I am not campaigning one way or the other on abortions. But an abortion is a BIG DEAL. It should never be taken lightly. It isn't the same as taking off a condom and flushing it down the toilet. It is terminating a life.

I don't have the facts, but I would hazard a guess that of all the abortions done in this country, maybe 1% fall into my "except" category. The rest are just irresponsible birth control.

Things won't change with regards to people who shouldn't have kids having sex. I know what it's like to be 16 walking around with a permastiffy. Nothing said here will stop that. If abortion is what is needed, there should be some remorse associated with it. There should be emotional pain. There should be social stigma associated with it. The decision should be carefully considered. It's the real world and nothing comes for free. If after all of that, you still need to do it, then that's your choice.

[Turf1600]

Did you read a thing he ("s0urce") wrote? That was what I was belatedly responding to.

And just for arguements sake, where exactly does your wealth of knowledge powering your opinions come from? Mine comes from personal experience, which in general lends a bit more weight to the whole ordeal as you wouldn't want a Therapist working on your BMW would you?

So, just to clarify, that whatever your parents do you'll follow in their footsteps. Just as say a man rapes a woman the child, if allowed to live will inevitable become a rapist? Am I misunderstanding "s0urce" somewhere?

Not at all. Do you really think a person who got raped wants to be reminded of it day after day by looking at the result of it? What if they can't or don't want to give birth? Does their being victim of a sexual crime strip them of the ability to choose? Absolutely not. I read exactly what s0urce wrote and it's a very common talking point. I was just amazed that you'd never heard it.

[Turf1600]

You're right, it's only the majority of the cases. It's like saying that all Arabs wear turbins. This is not truth 100% of the time but the fact that 80% of them wear a turbin, it would be more or less plausible to say that all Arabs wear turbins. Split hairs if you will, the fact is when you take something serious like abortion and try to make it less of a big deal or remarkably easy to get one paid for, you'll end up with those who ARE irresponsible, which would be having sex with as many people as possible, as this is VERY irresponsible, having abortions like tic-tacs.

Generally poor arguments come in the form of a similie or metaphor. The bottom line is that it's foolish to make sweeping generalizations. Is abortion misused, sure. Should you punish everyone because of it? No, and it's never going to happen.

[Turf1600]

[quote=Hallen;1928019]It's just you.

Except the case of rape, malformed fetus, or extreme health risk to the mother, yes, 100% of all other abortions are the direct result of irresponsibility. It is a choice to have sex. If you are not prepared to have children, then don't have sex. It's that simple..

As you said below, it's not going to happen. Humans aren't built that way. our sex drive is an adaptation that we can contribute our existence to.

Yes, I know that is completely unrealistic. That doesn't change the fact that it is irresponsible. Also, we make it seem like it isn't irresponsible if you are using some form of birth control. Well, good for you, that's a wise choice. But these things do fail. If you are not prepared to raise a child, don't have sex..

How do you feel about plan b?

I am not campaigning one way or the other on abortions. But an abortion is a BIG DEAL. It should never be taken lightly. It isn't the same as taking off a condom and flushing it down the toilet. It is terminating a life..

I guess at this point you must define life and where precisely it begins. As I said before, no spine, no care. Also, is a sprem penetrating an egg that different than rubbing one out in the toilet? What exactly changes fundamentally between the elapsed time? to me the difference is so moot and irrelevant that it's not worth thinking about. There is no gray area here, logically. Either you believe that every sperm is sacred and don't use birth control, or you do whatever you want and live with abortion when necessary. Maybe I'm just a black and white person, but I don't understand the inbetween area. Having that said, I don't believe in late term abortion. Rather, I wouldn't do it myself.

I don't have the facts, but I would hazard a guess that of all the abortions done in this country, maybe 1% fall into my "except" category. The rest are just irresponsible birth control..

By your definition of irresponsibility, yes. By the normal standard, no.

Things won't change with regards to people who shouldn't have kids having sex. I know what it's like to be 16 walking around with a permastiffy. Nothing said here will stop that. If abortion is what is needed, there should be some remorse associated with it. There should be emotional pain. There should be social stigma associated with it. The decision should be carefully considered. It's the real world and nothing comes for free. If after all of that, you still need to do it, then that's your choice.

Agreed. No one said it was easy.

[Massive Lee]

Abortion is still birth control

As much as hitting a wall is a way to control your speed.

[Turf1600]

As much as hitting a wall is a way to control your speed.

It will stop your car, just like abortion will control birth.

[pureaudio]

Not at all. Do you really think a person who got raped wants to be reminded of it day after day by looking at the result of it? What if they can't or don't want to give birth? Does their being victim of a sexual crime strip them of the ability to choose? Absolutely not. I read exactly what s0urce wrote and it's a very common talking point. I was just amazed that you'd never heard it.

So what about the children of men who beat their wives? What about children of men who are chronic drug addicts? Do you think those kids constantly remind their mothers of being mistreated? Do you know anyone who has a child due to a rape? I do and guess what, you can't pick him out of a crowd and automatically know that his real "father" was a rapist. He is a normal kid, his mom still loves him and even her husband who is his father now loves him. They may have some inner hate for the child that nobody knows about but some how I don't think that is the case.

[jrhaile]

For once I agree with the Canadian...

[Ral]

honestly, while I have mixed views regarding abortion (yes, I have personal experience with it, very complex situation) I feel that the state should not be using money from those who are religiously opposed to abortion for the purpose of helping someone else get one. The State should remain neutral- it should not prohibit, nor condone with tax dollars, the procedure.

[Massive Lee]

It will stop your car, just like abortion will control birth.

And it is an extreme measure, that most people hope they won't have to face. BTW Next time you attend an HPDE, tell your instructor you intend to use guardrails and concrete walls as a way to control your speed... ;-)

[Turf1600]

honestly, while I have mixed views regarding abortion (yes, I have personal experience with it, very complex situation) I feel that the state should not be using money from those who are religiously opposed to abortion for the purpose of helping someone else get one. The State should remain neutral- it should not prohibit, nor condone with tax dollars, the procedure.

Well guess what - I'm morally opposed to war and my tax dollars go there. I don't have a choice. What's the difference?

[Turf1600]

And it is an extreme measure, that most people hope they won't have to face. BTW Next time you attend an HPDE, tell your instructor you intend to use guardrails and concrete walls as a way to control your speed... ;-)

I won't, because I don't intend to have an abortion. I just feel strongly that it is a right.

[Turf1600]

So what about the children of men who beat their wives? What about children of men who are chronic drug addicts? Do you think those kids constantly remind their mothers of being mistreated? Do you know anyone who has a child due to a rape? I do and guess what, you can't pick him out of a crowd and automatically know that his real "father" was a rapist. He is a normal kid, his mom still loves him and even her husband who is his father now loves him. They may have some inner hate for the child that nobody knows about but some how I don't think that is the case.

Good for her. I'm glad it worked out that way. However, she had the right to abort her unwanted child. At the end of the day, that's all I ask for.