Bible Beaters Beware...

[PeterCip]

I said I was through, but I just wanted to say I apologize if I have offended anyone as well.

Thanks for your last post. Peace then?

(the M3 is Alecs')

Lets all hug!
Seriously now... What happens if you have chosen the wrong god? It appears that you have dozens to choose from, it would suck if you paid homage to the wrong god, and The Real god punished you for committing such a terrible sin.

I wouldn't want to piss of Krishna.. I'm sure she can do damage with all of those arms.

How do you feel about all of the other religious groups all over the world?
What are your thoughts on the religious fanatics that appear to do more harm then good?

And please don't get preachy on me, and I don’t need your charity prayer.. I'm ok with rotting in the ground.

Nothing meant to be condescending or offensive.. Just curious.
-pete

P.S. What wheels are do i spot on the non - M?

[flippyfloppy]

You really should try educating yourself on the Christian religion, if you knew anything about it then you would know that the one thing that makes one a Christian is the belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is everything when you are a Christian. You can learn so much by just praying and listening to Gods word. Our society has spun Christianity in a really controlling way and people are brought up from a young age to believe many things about Christianity that are simply not true. You are one of those people.

I know more about Christianity then most Christians. 12 years of Catholic school. I was brought up Christens so I am not "one of those people" as you put it. So you have a personal relationship to Jesus? You invite him over for dinner? Hang out on the weekends? How do you have a relationship with a dead guy? I don't believe anyone is a savior or profit. You we taught from a young age and taught that there is a god. You obviously don't have the mental capacity to question when you were taught. You go around blindly believing something because that is what you've been told since birth. Take off your blinders, question what has been beat into your head for so long. “The world it flat!!!!”

[RCWells]

The wheels on my car are Mille Miglia MM-IIs(16x7), and if you want me NOT to pray for you, okay. I will ask God if I can have that one back ;) .

And flippy, I have questioned many things many times throughout my life, but I always come back to what I know in my heart to be true. There are lots of things in life that are inexplicable, and will never be explained as long as humanity exists on this planet or wherever else we may be. Some things in this life you just can't explain. Charlie Daniels said that, and I agree. Question all you want, doesn't mean you're gonna find the answers. It's healthy to question, and I still do all the time, but I won't spend my soul on it.

Now, as to my mental capacity. Your statement implies that yours may be greater than others participating in this discussion. I think you directed it at my intelligence though, so would you care to compare I.Q. tests? I would.

I know many intelligent people in this world that love God as I know him, and dude, their intelligence is certainly greater than mine or even, dare I say it, YOURS. I have gone to church with many, many, physicians over the years, and even now. These Dr.s have dedicated their lives to the study of the human body and its complexities for 10, 12, even 15 years, just to get their degrees, and some have practiced for longer than you and I have been alive, combined! Yet they have chosen to love God and serve and worship him as well. Surely you can't tell me they don't have the mental capacity to understand or question or believe what they believe.

If anyone has gone arrogant here, it's you flippy. You are the one who is condescending toward others here, and have been from the start. Perhaps it is YOU who is uncomfortable with the fact that you have nothing to hold onto, nothing worthwhile in this world that truly has any substance. I know I was like that, 'cuz I chased it all for a lot of years, and I grew up in church. The highs, the buzz, the women, the alcohol, anything to try and fill the emptiness that was burning inside. It's always there too, no matter how many times you sex her up, drink beer, smoke the whatever or whatever else it is that you chase in life to give you pleasure. Sure it was fun, but it was fleeting. It all passes, and you are still left empty. Hollow inside, unfulfilled. In my experience, not just what I've been told by others flippy, is that Jesus Christ can and does fill that innate void (innate means you were born with it). Yup, he can fill that void so that you don't run around here for the rest of your life chasing something that doesn't exist. It's a lock and key thing. Yours is the lock, Jesus is the key that fits it. Nothing else will. If you don't want to believe that fine. But I have the right to believe it just as you do to reject it. And I am not calling you an idiot for doing so. It is your perogative.

Now, you believe as you must, and I will do the same. But please, stop trying to convince everyone here that you are better, or smarter, or more intelligent for questioning something that MILLIONS AND MILLIONS across the WORLD believe in. As if you are the first one to do that. Or the best at it. I won't try and force you to believe anything, again, it's your decisions to make in this life, not mine for you.

[flippyfloppy]

Religion is here because people have a hard time dealing with the fact that their life is kind of meaning less. Religion is like a cheap psychiatrist. It gives people meaning to life. The though that you will go to heaven or some other place after you die makes people feel better. Some people can’t handle the fact that when they die, it’s over. It’s a lot easier to deal with death by deluding yourself into believing that people never die, they just “move on”.

[diegom6]

when they jump out of the woods to tell you jesus loves you? thats the best..

We agree with something? shit, i better change my opinion so we can argue.

I love jesus, i'm putting a fish on my car right now ;)

-pete

ROFL!!! Jesus it's just a name for "GOD" sake .lol

I trust in me and we came from the evolution form the monkeys! "Astrolopitecus"

[hamann318is]

Do you think the law of gravity is just a "belief," or do you accept it as fact because its provable?

The latter. Proven through physics regarding the size and speed of rotation of the Earth, as well as its proximity to the Sun and orbiting moon.



In a related matter, "Christian-Science" cracks me up. It's based on the Bible and not scientific research. Their explanation of why the fossil record contradicts 'The Flood' makes me roll on the floor laughing.

Ken is right in this situation. Any two objects will have an attraction towards each other, and when the object is a planet, it will have a much stronger pull than a person would have. Go highschool physics!

[h0lmes]

You really should try educating yourself on the Christian religion, if you knew anything about it then you would know that the one thing that makes one a Christian is the belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is everything when you are a Christian. You can learn so much by just praying and listening to Gods word. Our society has spun Christianity in a really controlling way and people are brought up from a young age to believe many things about Christianity that are simply not true. You are one of those people.

I know more about Christianity then most Christians. 12 years of Catholic school. I was brought up Christens so I am not "one of those people" as you put it. So you have a personal relationship to Jesus? You invite him over for dinner? Hang out on the weekends? How do you have a relationship with a dead guy? I don't believe anyone is a savior or profit. You we taught from a young age and taught that there is a god. You obviously don't have the mental capacity to question when you were taught. You go around blindly believing something because that is what you've been told since birth. Take off your blinders, question what has been beat into your head for so long. “The world it flat!!!!”

Actually, I was brought up as a non-believer. Through Gods will and my own I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior only 2 years ago. Jesus eats dinner with me every night and he hangs out with me everyday. He may not be with me physically but he is always there. Me being taught at a young age to NOT believe in God only makes my relationship with him now much stronger. I question my faith from time to time and I still have much to learn but everytime I am reassured that Jesus is the only way to salvation.

[RCWells]

Amen brother Holmes.

[jimi318is]

Just had to chime in here. For all you that belive in evolution, (thats right, belive). It can be construed as a religion also, because it can not be proven by the Scientific Method, nor is there any more "proof" to support it than there is for creation. Just some food for thought.

[hamann318is]

Just had to chime in here. For all you that belive in evolution, (thats right, belive). It can be construed as a religion also, because it can not be proven by the Scientific Method, nor is there any more "proof" to support it than there is for creation. Just some food for thought.

Please explain how natural selection doesn't work.

[jimi318is]

Evolution to the degree of all life starting from one cell, or even man from apes, is an extremists way at looking at natural selection.

SCIENTIFIC PROBLEMS WITH MACROEVOLUTION:

1. OBSERVATION -steps of evolution have never been observed (Stebbins )

In the fossil record we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study.(Gould )

2. EXPERIMENTATION -The processes would exceed the lifetime of any

human experimenter (Dobzhansky )

3. REPRODUCTION impossible to reproduce in the laboratory. (Dobshansky )

4. FALSIFICATION -cannot be refuted thus outside empirical science. (Ehrlich )



RESEARCH PROBLEMS WITH MACROEVOLUTION:

1. ORIGINS -the chance of life originating from inorganic chemical elements by natural means is beyond the realm of possibility (Hoyle )

2. DEVELOPMENT -to produce a new organism from an existing life-form requires alterations in the genetic material which are lethal to the organism (Maddox )

3. STASIS -enzymes in the cell nucleus repair errors in the DNA (Barton )

4. GEOLOGIC COLUMN -out-of-place artifacts have been found in earth's sedimentary layers which disrupt the supposed evolutionary order (Corliss )

5. DESIGN -irreducible complexity within the structure of the cell requires design (Denton, Behe ).


DNA REPAIR: The genome is reproduced very faithfully and there are enzymes which repair the DNA, where errors have been made or when the DNA is damaged. - D.H.R. Barton, Professor of Chemistry, Texas A&M University,

Nobel Prize for Chemistry


(CHANGE WITHIN GENETIC BOUNDARIES: Microevolution does not lead beyond the confines of the species, and the typical products of microevolution, the geographic races, are not incipient species. There is no such category as incipient species. Richard B. Goldschmidt )


MUTATION ACCUMULATIONS RELENTLESSLY FATAL: Any random change in a complex, specific, functioning system wrecks that system. And living things are the most complex functioning systems in the universe.Science has now quantitated that a genetic mutation of as little as 1 billionth (0.0000001%) of an animal's genome is relentlessly fatal.The genetic difference between human and his nearest relative, the chimpanzee, is at least 1.6% Calculated out that is a gap of at least 48 million nucleotide differences that must be bridged by random changes. And a random change of only 3 nucleotides is fatal to an animal.

Geneticist Barney Maddox, 1992

[hamann318is]

DNA mutation is something completely different from natural selection. It's very funny that there are enzymes that can easily repair mutated DNA. It's not like cancer is a problem anymore...

[jimi318is]

Most of (close to all of) evolutionary "proof" has been disproved by the way, for example, "Lucy" was not human.
The knee joint of "Lucy" (Australopithecus afarensis) was discovered in the Fall of 1973 near Hadar in the Afar Triangle of Ethiopia over a mile away and 200 feet deeper than the other bones (uncovered in Oct. 1974) --which Johanson incredibly claims to have belonged to the same individual!! Actually, the ulna:humerus ratio of these bones is 92.5%, well within the range of true ape [chimpanzee (95%) vs. human (80%)]. In addition, the valgus angle (i.e., a measure of the extent that the leg above the knee bends outward or laterally) of Johanson's 1974 bones is about 15 degrees, which is indicative of a strong tree climber like an orangutan or spider monkey. Professional concensus as to "Lucy's" identity now favors that of arboreal ape, not an ape-to-man hominid intermediate.

[KenC]

Evolution to the degree of all life starting from one cell, or even man from apes, is an extremists way at looking at natural selection.

SCIENTIFIC PROBLEMS WITH MACROEVOLUTION:

1. OBSERVATION -steps of evolution have never been observed (Stebbins )

In the fossil record we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study.(Gould )

2. EXPERIMENTATION -The processes would exceed the lifetime of any

human experimenter (Dobzhansky )

3. REPRODUCTION impossible to reproduce in the laboratory. (Dobshansky )

4. FALSIFICATION -cannot be refuted thus outside empirical science. (Ehrlich )



RESEARCH PROBLEMS WITH MACROEVOLUTION:

1. ORIGINS -the chance of life originating from inorganic chemical elements by natural means is beyond the realm of possibility (Hoyle )

2. DEVELOPMENT -to produce a new organism from an existing life-form requires alterations in the genetic material which are lethal to the organism (Maddox )

3. STASIS -enzymes in the cell nucleus repair errors in the DNA (Barton )

4. GEOLOGIC COLUMN -out-of-place artifacts have been found in earth's sedimentary layers which disrupt the supposed evolutionary order (Corliss )

5. DESIGN -irreducible complexity within the structure of the cell requires design (Denton, Behe ).


DNA REPAIR: The genome is reproduced very faithfully and there are enzymes which repair the DNA, where errors have been made or when the DNA is damaged. - D.H.R. Barton, Professor of Chemistry, Texas A&M University,

Nobel Prize for Chemistry


(CHANGE WITHIN GENETIC BOUNDARIES: Microevolution does not lead beyond the confines of the species, and the typical products of microevolution, the geographic races, are not incipient species. There is no such category as incipient species. Richard B. Goldschmidt )


MUTATION ACCUMULATIONS RELENTLESSLY FATAL: Any random change in a complex, specific, functioning system wrecks that system. And living things are the most complex functioning systems in the universe.Science has now quantitated that a genetic mutation of as little as 1 billionth (0.0000001%) of an animal's genome is relentlessly fatal.The genetic difference between human and his nearest relative, the chimpanzee, is at least 1.6% Calculated out that is a gap of at least 48 million nucleotide differences that must be bridged by random changes. And a random change of only 3 nucleotides is fatal to an animal.

Geneticist Barney Maddox, 1992

You've obviously studied little molecular biology and/or genetics.

Regarding numbers 1-4 listed above, one can easily view evolution over many decades within the species Drosophila (the common fruit-fly), which is why they're used to by many geneticists in the first place - they produce many offspring and have very short live-spans. That and their extremely small genome.

In regards to Natural Selection, it can be viewed using the very same finches on the South Pacific Islands that Darwin himself studied. They different species of birds on the island eat different foods (competitive selection), and a short while back there was an extreme drought on the island. Many of the trees which produced large nuts in the past failed to grow very many. Thus the finches with large beaks which evolved to eat the large nuts died of starvation.

Regarding #5. Life on Earth appeared well over 3 BILLION years ago; plenty of time for endosymbiosis of prokaryotes and the consequent evolution of multicellularity among animals.

Regarding DNA repair has no bearing on your argument. You can read about RNA transcriptase complexes I-III, which is what your buddy Prof. Barton is referring to in any college level genetics text (I don't feel like digging mine out right now to quote it).

Your last paragraph made me roll around laughing because I can definitely tell that you've never studied genetics before.

First of all, less than half of our genome actually is translated and transcribed into anything functional in our bodies. Thus ANY change to our DNA (which statistically happens every time two humans reproduce) will not necessarily "wreck the system".

"And a random change of only 3 nucleotides is fatal to an animal."
- This is absolutely untrue. Well over 99.99% of the time you change three nucleotides (in a row mind you), they'll encode for a different amino acid, but I'm sure you already know that with your extensive background in genetics. Changing only 1 amino acid in a protein will not harm the function of the protein at all well over 99.99% of the time. That is to say if the three nucleotides changed were even in an intron of the genome (chances are they aren't).

"Science has now quantitated that a genetic mutation of as little as 1 billionth (0.0000001%) of an animal's genome is relentlessly fatal."
- Again, simply untrue.


Put that in your pipe and smoke it and get back to me after you've studied some biology.

Ken
- B.S. in Gen. Science

[jimi318is]

DNA mutation is something completely different from natural selection. It's very funny that there are enzymes that can easily repair mutated DNA. It's not like cancer is a problem anymore...

Cancer is not from a problem with DNA. :?

DNA mutation IS what evolution stands on. DNA mutation would be the ONLY way evolution would work, how else would an organism change if it was not through a DNA change?