Bible Beaters Beware...

[jimi318is]

"Evolution to the degree of all life starting from one cell, or even man from apes, is an extremists way at looking at natural selection. "

I never said that natural selection did not occur.(statement above^^^)

If you notice most of those statements are quotes from geneticists and biologists. Not from me. So set out to disprove them, not me ;)

*By the way, I did not study this subject in collage, just a subject that interests me. I'm a sound tech, with studies in sound, music, and art.

[KenC]

"Evolution to the degree of all life starting from one cell, or even man from apes, is an extremists way at looking at natural selection. "

I never said that natural selection did not occur.(statement above^^^)

If you notice most of those statements are quotes from geneticists and biologists. Not from me. So set out to disprove them, not me ;)

It actually isn't an extremist way.

So you're just copying and pasting paragraphs that you don't comprehend, yet use to support your belief in creation??? Please explain your rationale, or lack there of.

I don't need to disprove these so-called genticists and biologists, their colleagues in the scientific community already have. I was simply explaining to you why the statements you posted were untrue.

[jimi318is]

I comprehend them just fine, I've always been interested in science, just because I didn't go to collage for it doesn't mean I can't understand it. And since I don't do "hands on" studies on this on my own, I can't post findings of my own. I've never been to space, but if a read scientific writings on the effects of the vacuum in space (or what ever else) I should just keep it to myself?

If you have proof other wise, point me in the direction for study, like I said it interests me, I'm not the know all :roll:, that is what I've read and studied on so far. There is no way I could study it all, that is what is good about discussions such as this. But instead of being an ass and just saying "thats wrong" (when it comes to the DNA Mutation) explain and enlighten me/us on the matter. ;)

[jimi318is]

"It actually isn't an extremist way."

How is that, I belive in some form of natural selection, just not to the point where it changes an organism into another/ different organism.

Take your fruit-fly for example, sure it can change and adapt, but it's still a fruit-fly. It will never change to be a wasp (or what ever) And that is based on the studies (I've read) done so far. If you have a study that shows other wise please provide me with a place to find that info, I would be very interested to read up on it or to see it.

[KenC]

I honestly don't have the time or energy to elaborate further on my previous long post/rebuttal.

If you're interested in studying about evolution and/or natural selection, pick up one of Stephen Jay Gould's books. The Structure of Evolutionary Theory would be a good one to start with.

Gould, just like Darwin, did not believe that evolution and/or natural selection had to contradict religion, just as long as one is not used to explain the other. Gould was necessarily against "Creation Science," and wrote a brief essay about it (at the moment I can't recall the title).

[jimi318is]

Thanks, I wasn't trying to prove or disprove a religion with this, just saying that a belief in a theory could also be seen in the same light as religion, (on faith). It kind of got out of hand after that ;)

[KDZROK]

I think God gave us evidence of evolution, so that we would have to make a choice, with even greater faith, than if probability of evolution didn't exsist. The therory isn't all that bad, it creates more jobs!

[DEV0 E30]

God is a big mean kid with a magnifying glass.

I'm not religous at all but RCWells is actually posting valid stuff in a non converting way. Well done.

I don't believe in an organized religon, I don't think I need one. I believe common sense and knowing right from wrong is enough for me. The world isn't a perfect place, live your life day to day and try to be a better person each day. Karma and what we all learned in kindergarten works for me.

[KenC]

"It actually isn't an extremist way."

How is that, I belive in some form of natural selection, just not to the point where it changes an organism into another/ different organism.

Take your fruit-fly for example, sure it can change and adapt, but it's still a fruit-fly. It will never change to be a wasp (or what ever) And that is based on the studies (I've read) done so far. If you have a study that shows other wise please provide me with a place to find that info, I would be very interested to read up on it or to see it.

Of course a fruit-fly will never evolve to become a wasp. However, if you were to take a single population of fruit-flies, divide them in half, move each of the two populations to very different environments, let them randomly mate and reproduce for many thousands of generations, you would be left with two different species each with a common ancestor (the first fruit fly population).

[RCWells]

Some of you's are really really confused.

Confused about what? I'm sorry I don't posess blind faith.

Read some Phillip J. Gould and get back to me...

Tell you what Ken, you read The Holy Bible, by God, and I'll read whatever it is you would like for me to read by Phillip J. Gould, or Stephen Jay, or whoever it is, and then you and I can discuss. Deal?

[KenC]

Some of you's are really really confused.

Confused about what? I'm sorry I don't posess blind faith.

Read some Phillip J. Gould and get back to me...

Tell you what Ken, you read The Holy Bible, by God, and I'll read whatever it is you would like for me to read by Phillip J. Gould, or Stephen Jay, or whoever it is, and then you and I can discuss. Deal?

It's Stephen, I'm not sure why I erroneously typed Phillip last time.

I've actually read quite a bit of The Bible, as I was confirmed a Roman Catholic a while back.

What would you like to discuss?

[RCWells]

Nothing in particular at this time, as I have never even heard of Gould. But, I would be interested in reading what he's to say. You just said to read his work and then get back to you, and I am accepting your offer conditionally. You read the Bible and I'll read Gould.

What titles by Gould would you recommend?

[jimi318is]

Of course a fruit-fly will never evolve to become a wasp. However, if you were to take a single population of fruit-flies, divide them in half, move each of the two populations to very different environments, let them randomly mate and reproduce for many thousands of generations, you would be left with two different species each with a common ancestor (the first fruit fly population).

I agree with you on that,"sure it can change and adapt, but it's still a fruit-fly". But it proves natural selection, not the extreme view of evolution, where it could change into another organism. Also I was not looking to get into an argument over "the evolution theory VS. creation" I was originally stating that a belief in a theory (of any kind, [I just used evolution as an example]) is just that, a belief. Most people that don't belive in "God", belive in evolution. I was just pointing out that both could be viewed as a "religious" belief, because religion doesn't have to be based on a "God". We all, or I should say, most of us as people have a belief in something that can not be proved or disproved. But most people point the finger of "thats not right" at the ones that belive in a God. I personally think everyone has the God given right to belive in what they want to.

[KenC]

Nothing in particular at this time, as I have never even heard of Gould. But, I would be interested in reading what he's to say. You just said to read his work and then get back to you, and I am accepting your offer conditionally. You read the Bible and I'll read Gould.

What titles by Gould would you recommend?

I'm trying to locate specific articles that I've read in the past, but I'm having trouble as he has written over 150.

I have to leave town for a day in a few hours, so I won't have time to dig them all up. There was a pretty concise one that we wrote just before his death a few years back that I'm trying to find - hopefully I'll locate it when I return.
However, if you visit http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ , you'll be able to find many of his works. If you scroll all the way down to the bottom of the 'library' section, you'll find some of his relevant works. Make sure and read a few of them under Nonoverlapping Magisteria, as this is where Gould attempts to convince readers that religion and science don't have to overlap.

What would you like me to read from the Bible? Genesis?

[tobybmw]

To put it in a very simply:

God has given us a choice. To follow Him or to follow...

A great book to read and reflect on those curious is: "The Chosen" by Chaim Potok. and anything by CS Lewis.

Andy