Tough questions of a bullshit ticket! (update post 102)

[CleanAzzE30z]

Its possible the model and camera crew had permits. But at very least you should talk to a lawyer and tell him what happened. Although with no 3rd party witnesses it will be difficult to get them to dismiss the ticket (which technically is valid) on grounds of profiling or whatever. Ive had my fair share of run-ins with the Metro rail rent-a-cops. One of them wanted to check me for warrants for fucking not paying the fare instead of just giving me the fare ticket (long story, I always pay except this once). Definitely talk to a lawyer to see if you can get the bullshit fine/charge reduced.

The answer he gave to your "Where is the sign posted?" question is pure bullshit, however. It doesnt matter what his opinion on what percentage of the population knows the laws of the rails, its supposed to be posted. But its doubtful that the way he reacted or treated you, unless flagrantly done so, could be proven or matter in the course of him giving you a righteous ticket (albeit being a prick about it, which isnt per se illegal unless he actually said some sideways disrespectful shit about inborn dignity or inherent and unchangeable physical traits you may or may not have). Its his word against yours, at this point. And that, my friend, is a battle you will never win. BUT, like I said, its prudent to get a lawyer to reduce the charge/fine. Even with a PD youll get a chance to plead to some bullshit charge. They upsell and pad the charges precisely for that reason. Which is wrong, but fuck it, its life.

Thats why I learned to stay the fuck away from all situations that involve pigs that I can control (which in this case you couldnt really expect this guy to go "Wyatt Earp" on you instead of telling you to be on your way). But its the luck of the draw, brother.

[greanthumb]

nice pics btw.... hahahaha(not funny):neutral:

[ethrtyiS]

so edwin just you got fined right? did you get a phone number from one of the members of the other party there(could be used as witnesses)? did you get the number of the security guard(again, could be witness)? that track doesn't seem to be in use at all, is it(hence why there is a car on it)?

heres my input:
first thing is first, plead not guilty(obviously) and set your court date, but try and delay if possible. within now until your actual trail date, gather as much information as you possibly can. omar seems to have a great start so far with this information. go back if you need to, to take additional shots of where the car was, where the other group was, the width between track and your spot, and try to make it in favor of yourself's. if you can describe your placement near the tracks as not trespassing, or not in any terms of breaking the law then you will have a better chance at winning the case.

mention that

...this is the location, fully accessible to anyone on foot or car, no signs posted anywhere about RR property or trespassing.

as omar stated. additionally, if you can find other locations such as this one where it is fully accessible by foot and car without signs, take pictures of that as well. reason being is because you can compare it to your situation and demonstrate it(depending on the looks) the same or worse than your situation to the judge.

mention the other group that was way closer than you two were and show pictures. mention that they were able to leave with a warning. explain to the judge how you think that you should be let off with a warning because you had no idea what you were doing was in fact illegal. you were only there with the intention of some picture taking.

if the officers state something like you were doing something beyond what is actually true and denies the other group, then you can say objection your honor, inadmissible evidence, and explain how the other group was let off free and show some visual evidence. also if you got any of their numbers or the security guard's number, this would also help as a call to witness. if the officers fail to prove your guilt at the end of their testimony don't ask any additional questions, immediately move to have the case dismissed and explain what they failed to prove.

remember everything about the situation, the distance between the track and the other parked cars(go get a measuring tape), the distance from the track to your car, etc. this can all be used at court to help justify your innocence!

you can even ask the officers questions, be polite and ask things such as how many of the other people were there, what were you wearing, what was the weather like. all these questions can be asked to see how well versed the officers were. BTW, if the one of the officers doesn't show up, you AUTOMATICALLY win the case, both citation officers must be present!
lastly, just try and delay as much as you can, if possible.

if you go in there with all this information and you are very well prepared for any question the judge may ask, you will have a FAR greater chance of having the case dropped on your behalf.

here is some information that i can find regarding tresspassing on railroads:

CALIFORNIA
It is unlawful in California for anyone to enter or remain upon the property of any railroad where entry, presence or conduct upon the property interferes with or interrupts the safe and efficient operation of any locomotive. A violation of this section is a misdemeanor under California law. Cal. [Penal] Code § 369i (West 1999). Also see Cal. [Penal] Code § 554 (West 1999) regarding posting of property.

By definition, trespassers are illegally on railroad property without permission. They are most often pedestrians who walk across or along railroad tracks as a shortcut to another destination, or they are engaged in another activity such as loitering, hunting, bicycling, snowmobiling, or ATV riding.

California trespassing laws are unique in that they can be filed as infractions, misdemeanors, or felonies. Although all three are possible, criminal trespass is most frequently prosecuted as a misdemeanor.

Misdemeanor Penal Code 602 violations subject you to up to six months in a county jail and a maximum $1,000 fine.23 However, certain violations (for example, refusing to leave a battered woman’s shelter after being asked to do so by a manager) will raise your jail exposure to one year.24

If your offense doesn’t rise to misdemeanor level, it may be charged as (or reduced as part of a plea bargain to) an infraction.


Example: Ignoring a "no trespassing" sign and going onto another’s private property will generally be charged as an infraction…the first and second time. A third offense on the same property will lead to a misdemeanor filing.25

if anything else comes up in my head ill let you know, thats all i can think of at this hour. i wish the best of luck with this ticket. also little things, call and ask to have the court appearance moved to a further court location as officers don't want to travel all that way.

shit, thats a lot of writing...anyways, good luck edwin. if you need any additional help, let me know.

[e30e]

E30e...no, just no.

Of course their motive is revenue. Why do you think it's a billion dollar industry? They KNEW these guys weren't here for vandalism or theft, they saw an opportunity to make a quick thousand and substantiate their jobs.

I'm sure they got a hand job when they got back to HQ for writing these guys up.

Your right, Union Pacific makes tons of money off tickets, STFU! We make an average of 100k per train load, fining someone is peanuts and does not validate the cops jobs. What validates there job is when they saved someone's life or kept someone from causing 100 of thousands of dollars in damages.


As for the OP, like I said earlier good luck with this, Federal Railroad Administration's laws will supersede any California laws on trespassing because the railroads are much like an airport's laws with the FAA. The Union Pacific police are not like your typical city cops, there job is to protect and serve the Railroads, not the public.

[DTM190]

The Union Pacific police are not like your typical city cops, there job is to protect and serve the Railroads, not the public.

Was the OP obstructing train traffic? No. Was the OP damaging or vandalizing railroad property? no. Was anyone in danger?? No. The officers should have given the trespassers a verbal warning and requested that they leave the premises. Instead, they acted like dickheads.

I think it would be cheaper to put up a fence than to employ these 2 douches if protecting the railroads is so important.

That train line doesnt look like its seen a train in a long time either as mentioned.

I think your 4th and 5th pics are very relevant and you should most definitely present these at court.

Another thing you may want to mention is the fact that they have not put the correct address on the notice, technicalities like that have helped me in the past

[greanthumb]

preach on brotha:hitler:

[greanthumb]

E30e...no, just no.

Of course their motive is revenue. Why do you think it's a billion dollar industry? They KNEW these guys weren't here for vandalism or theft, they saw an opportunity to make a quick thousand and substantiate their jobs.

I'm sure they got a hand job when they got back to HQ for writing these guys up.

:giggle::giggle::giggle::nice::nice::nice:

[Rsully70sev]

You're not understanding what I'm saying...at all.

By your logic, you're telling me that the only way police substantiate their job is when they save a life. Not with speeding, seat belt, red light, tespassing, fix-it, stop sign, dwb, DUI, exhaust modification, etc etc tickets.

Fortune 500 companies want to know WHY the police are there, why they are paying them salary, and what they are doing on a daily basis. Yes, it substantiates their job. You're right, I'm sure UP could give a fuck about $1,000 but writing tickets like this keeps the cop(s) employed. They don't just let employees run free to save the world, or else everyone would be getting blow jobs in cart #3...and getting paid at the same time.

[IRON-E]

You're not understanding what I'm saying...at all.

By your logic, you're telling me that the only way police substantiate their job is when they save a life. Not with speeding, seat belt, red light, tespassing, fix-it, stop sign, dwb, DUI, exhaust modification, etc etc tickets.

Fortune 500 companies want to know WHY the police are there, why they are paying them salary, and what they are doing on a daily basis. Yes, it substantiates their job. You're right, I'm sure UP could give a fuck about $1,000 but writing tickets like this keeps the cop(s) employed. They don't just let employees run free to save the world, or else everyone would be getting blow jobs in cart #3...and getting paid at the same time.

Bingo!

[CleanAzzE30z]

WHat he means is that they write enough bullshit citations to keep the funds rolling in so that the police force (or in this case the railroad authority be they Amtrak or L.A. Metrolink which wouldnt fall into the federal jurisdiction I believe since thats a city/county entity) doesnt have to be scaled back by budget cuts. Having a secondary effect of justifying their existence as well. Im not saying I agree in this particular case (although I dont disagree, seeing as there are constantly stories of "quotas" leaking out) but I dont find it preposterous, either. Im simply clarifying what I believe his point was trying to state in case clarification was needed although you seem like you have a handle on it.

In any case, every response posted here is conjecture and hearsay in relation to this specific case. Its best to check it out in case any number of these things posted are true.

Mariano

[e30e]

WHat he means is that they write enough bullshit citations to keep the funds rolling in so that the police force (or in this case the railroad authority be they Amtrak or L.A. Metrolink which wouldnt fall into the federal jurisdiction I believe since thats a city/county entity) doesnt have to be scaled back by budget cuts. Having a secondary effect of justifying their existence as well. Im not saying I agree in this particular case (although I dont disagree, seeing as there are constantly stories of "quotas" leaking out) but I dont find it preposterous, either. Im simply clarifying what I believe his point was trying to state in case clarification was needed although you seem like you have a handle on it.

In any case, every response posted here is conjecture and hearsay in relation to this specific case. Its best to check it out in case any number of these things posted are true.

Mariano

I agree, being an employ of this company I can tell you this. The officers that gave the citation have some federal power, much like TSA agents. I highly doubt Union Pacific is setting quota's to catch trespassers as I've personally seen similar insistence where warnings are given. A lot of it has to do with the person's responses receiving the warning or there actions. I'm not saying the OP was was rude. You guys also have no clue what was going on that rail line or how busy it was maybe or if the Federal Rail Road Administration was in the area and he's on bitch detail to clear the area. Union Pacific can be fined a lot more having non-certified railway workers or people in the area by the FRA, hence probably why the officer did what he did. Its not so much a trespassing issue like crossing the line as much as its a safety/vandalism issue that gets treated as trespassing.

As for any comments of the Railway was empty, its open access blah blah blah....The FRA and the UP don't see things that way.

I think it would be cheaper to put up a fence than to employ these 2 douches if protecting the railroads is so important.

That train line doesnt look like its seen a train in a long time either as mentioned.

I think your 4th and 5th pics are very relevant and you should most definitely present these at court.

Another thing you may want to mention is the fact that they have not put the correct address on the notice, technicalities like that have helped me in the past

Wrong on many many accounts, Union Pacific has 33,000 miles of track, it'll cost millions of dollar to fence an area plus it would have an negative effect on the environment.

If the RR is in LA chances are it see's trains as LA Ports are one of our highest flow area's of train traffic. Our tracks look like shit because there old, were in the process of ripping out all old track and replacing it.

Being on property without proper safety gear is a violation of FRA rules will get Union Pacific fined, hence why the officer's job is get people off property.

[Dozyproductions]

As for any comments of the Railway was empty, its open access blah blah blah....The FRA and the UP don't see things that way.

then build a fence or have a sign so the 99.9999999999% other people in the world get it.


Metapwhore:
How can you know you're trespassing in some else's woods if there aren't any markers to tell you so?

[e30e]

then build a fence or have a sign so the 99.9999999999% other people in the world get it.


Metapwhore:
How can you know you're trespassing in some else's woods if there aren't any markers to tell you so?

Read my editted post, RR was there first, there is a Railway for Railcars and Trains, not for civilians and cars; this isn't nature. Plus that is what the cop was doing, his job. Just like a forest ranger will tell you in the forest your trespassing.

[CleanAzzE30z]

The officers that gave the citation have some federal power, much like TSA agents. I highly doubt Union Pacific is setting quota's to catch trespassers as I've personally seen similar insistence where warnings are given.

I am asking this purely out of curiosity and for the benefit of my own knowledge because I am always looking to learn from people that know (not in a sarcastic endeavor). Do even the LA Metrolink attendants/officers have federal powers? Again, I say that the rails are a whole different ballgame and was applying my extensive felonious criminal/traffic authority knowledge experiences. :)

[dvck]

e30e, the sad thing is for Iron-E and I, that you make alot of sense.

I do understand everything you are saying and it makes perfect sense, had the officer made
any mention of any of what you're saying i wouldn't have been as mad.

Still per what you are saying as far as distances, safety, etc, we were not breaking any of those
rules, and i think i can speak on behalf of us both when i say we would have fully understood
what we were ignorant to, and have been on our way, making sure not to come back.