homebuying fun (caution: stupidly wide .jpg)

[rturbo 930]

You make a lot of excellent points above. Old trim and fixtures can be saved and replaced at the end of a reno. There is generally nothing much from an old kitchen that is saved. When it comes to this room people want new and modern but with the look of the period when the house was built.

Yeah, kitchens and bathrooms are an exception to some extent. Those are two rooms where modern fixtures and appliances make sense, but IMO they should be done in an appropriate style. In old homes where it looks like Home Depot just took a shit in the kitchen and bathrooms, I just have to shake my head. The look doesn't fit at all.

Plaster itself really doesnt add character to a house unless you plan on leaving cracks or uneveness. Well done plaster and well done sheetrock should look about the same.

I disagree with you somewhat. If someone takes the time to make their plaster walls laser straight, then you're right, it probably won't make a difference. But for me, that's part of the charm of an old home, that the walls aren't perfectly straight and textured. Plaster walls are also much more durable than sheetrock, and although I've never had them, I've heard they're also good for blocking noise, and also against fire. I know some people don't care or don't notice, but I'm pretty strict with keeping things original.

It really boils down to the quality of reno done and budget available. If the budget is huge you can buy modern windows that look like old windows. They will far exceede the performance of what they replace.

Yes, you can get custom windows in the style of the original, but you will pay a fortune, and they won't have the original wavy glass, unless you pay an even larger fortune for authentic wavy window glass. Even then, it won't look exactly the same. Nothing is perfect in an old house, and anything that is perfect will stick out. You're better off dealing with the higher heating and cooling bill IMO. And, once again, storm windows in conjunction with restored original windows make a big difference. You might be surprised.

http://www.oldhouseguy.com/windows/

Personally, I think that if someone buys an old home, they should be willing to deal with the drawbacks of an old home. It's never going to be perfect, and it will never be as good as a new home in terms of performance. And it will only be original once.

[ajhostetter]

Are you in wash park or cherry creek?



The problem with knob and tube is the insulation on the conductors. For some reason, rodents like to chew on it and it has a tendency to disintegrate over time. If it isn't a safety hazard today, it will be one day. Also, that system has no ground. That can be a safety hazard in itself. Especially in areas where gfci's are required. For, my peace of mind and the extra sleep I'll get not staying awake worrying about the house catching fire with my family in it is easily worth the cost of replacement.

Highlands/Jeff Park off Speer and I25. Understood on the wiring. Ours is 98% new, since the PO had all kinds of weird stuff with the wiring, between flying splices, nonsensical outlet/circuit layout, etc...

And we did a radiant heat system with a sidearm for the domestic water...

[ajhostetter]

As for windows, no, you don't need to replace them. Old windows are very simple, and are easily repaired. They can also be supplemented with storm windows to make them perform about as well as new windows, provided there are no leaks. By keeping the old windows, you've kept part of the home's character, and saved a ton of money. And because they are simple to fix, if one window breaks, or has rot issues, it can be repaired pretty cheaply. New windows however, can't really be repaired as easily. If something breaks you're more likely looking at replacement, and hopefully they still make the model you bought. If they don't, then you're looking at either custom windows, mismatched windows, or a whole new set. I would never recommend replacing the windows in a home with any historic value.

Insulating the building could be difficult since it looks like it's probably brick. If it's anything like the c. 1833 building my family had until recently, it probably has plaster directly over the brick. Not much you can do with that.

+1 on the windows. We have really good storms on ours, and they insulate pretty well. Plus, fixing sash weights isn't that hard and is kinda fun.

As far as insulating, the best thing I think you can do if you have plaster over brick, as we do, is the insulate the attic really well. Ours is due, now that I think about it...

[flyboyx]

Highlands/Jeff Park off Speer and I25. Understood on the wiring. Ours is 98% new, since the PO had all kinds of weird stuff with the wiring, between flying splices, nonsensical outlet/circuit layout, etc...

And we did a radiant heat system with a sidearm for the domestic water...

wow. that heating system cost a buck or two. looks like you had a plumber that takes some pride in his craft.

[evandael]

And we did a radiant heat system with a sidearm for the domestic water...

Damn that is plumbing porn!


The house is a simple, narrow, interior rowhouse. 1900's construction. Brick. Steam radiant heating, gas appliances.

I'm being mindful of the scope creep with my budget of around $40k for renovation. Re-doing the bathroom and kitchen are part of it, along with the rooftop deck and a sun louver facade (the front faces south and the house has no A/C, looking to minimize solar gain). I'm going to rip out the carpet and see what's under there (hoping original flooring, which I will refinish).

Other than that the house is in good shape, the wiring has been redone and I am NOT gutting the place. The only thing I may do to improve insulation is spray foaming the roof cavity (flat roof) and building out the exterior walls with studs and insulating the wall cavities.


I think I can achieve what I want within my budget. I've been talking to a couple contractors and will be getting bids soon.

[Kershaw]

Disagree. The things that contribute to an older homes value and character and all the original features - plaster walls, floors, doors, windows, light fixtures, you name it.

I have never seen nearly 100 year old plaster and lath look great. My walls have all been poorly patched all over the place, multiple layers of wallpaper, and then multiple layers of paint. I'm actually in the middle of removing loose sections of plaster and patching and smoothing over all the wallpaper lines in the front two rooms. It's a pain in the ass. None of the walls are very flat either. And then on top of all this, all the trim is still painted. Beautifully stained oak trim painted white. Is it cost effective to remove it all without breaking it and then have it all dipped and chemically stripped? No, just get new trim, it's not like we're talking about fast growth southern yellow pine that looks dramatically different. Might as well rip everything out, shim/sister the studs flat, new drywall, new oak trim and restore it to it's original condition. And while the studs are exposed, put in outlets every 8 feet or 2 per wall or whatever. My house came with 1 outlet per room, retrofitting outlets sucks.

The wavy glass is a cool feature of my old windows (most still have it), I agree. Unfortunately, none of the windows are in great shape. They're all chipped, have holes, or damage all the bottom edges. They're all double hung and none seal that great against the top window. Even more unfortunate is that even if you pay out the ass for the correctly styled wood windows, the wood is not the same. It's not 300 year oak old growth that'll last 100 years with abuse or indefinitely with care anymore.

Each house is different though, of course, ymmv.

[ajhostetter]

Damn that is plumbing porn!


The house is a simple, narrow, interior rowhouse. 1900's construction. Brick. Steam radiant heating, gas appliances.

I'm being mindful of the scope creep with my budget of around $40k for renovation. Re-doing the bathroom and kitchen are part of it, along with the rooftop deck and a sun louver facade (the front faces south and the house has no A/C, looking to minimize solar gain). I'm going to rip out the carpet and see what's under there (hoping original flooring, which I will refinish).

Other than that the house is in good shape, the wiring has been redone and I am NOT gutting the place. The only thing I may do to improve insulation is spray foaming the roof cavity (flat roof) and building out the exterior walls with studs and insulating the wall cavities.


I think I can achieve what I want within my budget. I've been talking to a couple contractors and will be getting bids soon.

Sounds like a great find. If you're handy and have a habitat restore in the area, I recommend looking at them cabinets and what-not. We did our full kitchen for $6k 8 years ago and that includes the travertine flooring (I don't recommend that). As far as our heat/hot water system, we pulled the 2200 feet of tubing ourselves and had the plumber terminate everything. It wasn't cheap, but it's gorgeous and incredibly efficient.

[Hansel]

I have an 1892 Victorian in City Park West area of Denver.

My electric and plumbing was all redone before I bought the place which was nice.

In regards to plaster walls not being straight, trim painted etc etc. As my realtor friend told me when I bought it, stuff is not going to line up and have quirks. Its the territory w/ houses that old. "Fixing" everything to be straight and even just isn't feasible sometimes. My foundation is solid as a rock, but rolling a marble across my 120 yr old floors will definitely not result in a straight path.

[rturbo 930]

I have never seen nearly 100 year old plaster and lath look great. My walls have all been poorly patched all over the place, multiple layers of wallpaper, and then multiple layers of paint. I'm actually in the middle of removing loose sections of plaster and patching and smoothing over all the wallpaper lines in the front two rooms. It's a pain in the ass. None of the walls are very flat either. And then on top of all this, all the trim is still painted. Beautifully stained oak trim painted white. Is it cost effective to remove it all without breaking it and then have it all dipped and chemically stripped? No, just get new trim, it's not like we're talking about fast growth southern yellow pine that looks dramatically different. Might as well rip everything out, shim/sister the studs flat, new drywall, new oak trim and restore it to it's original condition. And while the studs are exposed, put in outlets every 8 feet or 2 per wall or whatever. My house came with 1 outlet per room, retrofitting outlets sucks.

I've seen a few decent plaster walls, but I guess it depends on your standards. As I said earlier here, I like the uneven walls, and IMO anything that is laser straight sticks out like a sore thumb in an old home. And quite honestly, I think it would be a losing battle trying to get anything straight in a 100+ year old house. Some are definitely better than others though.

I definitely understand wanting updated electrical though. My family's beach house was built in 1930. The first floor has been updated, but the second floor (two bedrooms) has a total of two outlets, two overhead lights, and only one wall switch for the stairway light. The walls are some kind of fiberboard though and need to be replaced anyway. In your case, I would try to do it without ripping the walls out though. Maybe put the outlets in the baseboards, or use the bottom part of the wall that would be covered by trim as an access point.

The wavy glass is a cool feature of my old windows (most still have it), I agree. Unfortunately, none of the windows are in great shape. They're all chipped, have holes, or damage all the bottom edges. They're all double hung and none seal that great against the top window. Even more unfortunate is that even if you pay out the ass for the correctly styled wood windows, the wood is not the same. It's not 300 year oak old growth that'll last 100 years with abuse or indefinitely with care anymore.

Each house is different though, of course, ymmv.

Depending how bad it is, yeah, that might be a case where replacement makes sense, though I'd have to see it to make a good judgement. And I hear you on the quality of the wood, and that's one of the reasons why I would generally make an effort to keep any original wood trim, windows, doors, etc.

[Kershaw]

I've been drilling up for electrical access and putting the outlets in the same spot the rest are, 12" up from the floor. it's just a pain doing it on the outer walls through the bottom plate. I have to use a flexible drill connection and get into tight spaces. Sometimes that's not possible and I drop down from the attic, but then I have to feed wire down 9+ feet and that's a pain too. Either way, retrofitting anything is usually pita. And then all the 100 year old lumber really takes a toll on the drill bits, it's not easy to drill through, the stuff is super solid, especially since I can't put any weight on the bit due to it being overhead and with a flexible connection.

TL; DR: Old homes are great, but they suck to work on.

[evandael]

TL; DR: Old homes are great, but they suck to work on.

Kinda like old cars? At least sometimes!

[BlackSpeed66]

I have nothing to offer in this thread except congrats on the purchase!


Oh, and your s52 i bought is in my car and running! ;)

[ajhostetter]

Latest, and last project for a while (Baby #3 comes in March). I added a wooden backsplash to my bar and did a floating shelf. Wrenching 10" lags is a bitch.

[evandael]

update

house is gutted ;D

check some pics here https://www.instagram.com/3471.5Denny/


i'll be posting more pics once framing/electrical/plumbing starts

[rturbo 930]

I am NOT gutting the place.

Just be careful of scope creep.

house is gutted

Oops.