mot---

[blunttech]

do you not agree that substance abuse is a natural progression??? i mean it normally goes something like this----
a young kid starts out smoking cigarettes, maybe some alcohol and then weed. and up the chain they move.
show me an adolescent who one day fires an 8ball after school as his or her first drug experiment. i just dont see how you cant see my point of view. not every kid that smokes weed is going to go onto harder drugs but thats the natural progression for those that are predisposed to drug addiction.

[h0lmes]

do you not agree that substance abuse is a natural progression??? i mean it normally goes something like this----
a young kid starts out smoking cigarettes, maybe some alcohol and then weed. and up the chain they move.
show me an adolescent who one day fires an 8ball after school as his or her first drug experiment. i just dont see how you cant see my point of view. not every kid that smokes weed is going to go onto harder drugs but thats the natural progression for those that are predisposed to drug addiction.

Yeah that makes sense but the whole gateway drug thing is bullshit. They make people think that smoking weed is gonna flip a switch in your brain and you're going to start craving coke or something.

[T3rd Ferguson]

Yeah that makes sense but the whole gateway drug thing is bullshit. They make people think that smoking weed is gonna flip a switch in your brain and you're going to start craving coke or something.

True, the gateway drug thing is BS. it's all about the type of personality you have and whether it is addictive or not. Obviously, there is more to it than that but you get the idea.

[ldsbeaker]

natural progression for those that are predisposed to drug addiction.

How exactly does someone become "predisposed" to drug addiction?
You mean like my father was an alcoholic, so now I'm "predisposed" to be an alcoholic too?
I think that's bullshit.
Now, if you're talking about "crack babies" well, obviously, they are addicted in the womb. I could see that kind of predisposition.

p.s. Never a sip of alcohol. Ever. You make your own choices.

[schmidty]

weed is a gateway drug because to most people it isn't seen as a REAL or hardcore drug. That being said, to a teenager who is asked if he wants to smoke some weed might say, "hey why not? no big deal right...its not like its coke or anything"....where as if he had been asked to do coke he most likely would have said no. Now, he starts smokin weed more regularly, buys his own, and now smokin weed is like smokin cigarettes to him and one day he sitting there gettin high with his stoner buddies and one of pulls out some coke and the kid is so stoned out of his mind he's like "screw it, im gonna try this". BAM - gateway drug.... for the simple fact that weed is so widely used and exposes u to other drugs....

[blunttech]

How exactly does someone become "predisposed" to drug addiction?
You mean like my father was an alcoholic, so now I'm "predisposed" to be an alcoholic too?
I think that's bullshit.
Now, if you're talking about "crack babies" well, obviously, they are addicted in the womb. I could see that kind of predisposition.

p.s. Never a sip of alcohol. Ever. You make your own choices.

yes thats exactly what i mean. its my belief its a gene. i made my own choices. most were very poor. but ive also made some good ones
this is a whole debate in itself. my grandfather died from alcoholism, my father had 37 years of sobriety when he passed away a couple months ago. i have 26 years of sobriety and one of my sons shows some pretty strong signs hes an addict however thats up to him to decide if thats true. i hope im wrong but its like looking in the mirror 30 years ago for me.
so take that for what its worth. you can assume we are "weak" if you like.
thats what many people who dont have a real knowledge of addiction assume
but if you really knew what it took to break a cocaine and heroin addiction and go from what i was 26 years ago to who i am now you wouldnt think i was weak

[Dave]

My younger brother had several bad years when he was hooked on heroin. Not a chance he just one day decided "Hey, I think I'll stick a needle in my arm!" He went through this escalation/progression. Bad choices put him in a spot he could not get out of without hitting a seriously low low and a lot of help.

My dad tried his best to do what he thought was right - an outpatient program, then a methadone clinic (fucking joke!). It took him getting busted for felony possession and an 18 month program through Drug Court to get him off that shit.

Pops wanted to bail him out while his charges were pending - we convinced him not to do so. My brother's girlfriend was busted with him and after he was locked up for two weeks, she got her grandmother to post his bond. He went through the Drug Court program, she did not want to, and took a guilty plea on the felony and got probation.

He went through hell getting sober, and she wound up dead - while he was wrapping up his 18 month stint in the program, she got plastered and slipped and fell in the bathtub and broke her neck.

Is there some predisposition or gene? I think maybe. I have some uncles who were drunks. I used to drink WAAAY too much when I was in College - a habit I curbed by my senior year. And sure, I dabbled in some other things, but nothing that was highly addictive like cocaine or opiates. But when I did dablle in the hallucinogens and cannabiniods, I sure can remember the coke and smack being offered and much more available. I just never wanted to go there. No way.

[Nick]

I've never even TOUCHED drugs.

I was brought up in a Northern Italian family, so alcohol is basically part of our lifestyle. There was no restriction on it for me, so it never held any fascination. I drink, sure. And SURE, I've been drunk...though I've never SET OUT to get drunk, because I think that's a retarded thing to do. In Italian culture, to be drunk...we say 'fare una brutta figura'...meaning 'to make an ugly figure' of onesself.

As for drugs, (and with alcohol), I see two ways that addiction happens. The first and most common is you start experimenting. So yeah, I can see weed being a 'gateway drug', because it gets you into the culture, and a certain mindset. Some people just do that and nothing else. Some people say 'well gee, all drugs must be good' so they start scoring all sorts of stuff.

The second way seems to be that some people just have sucky lives, and they want to escape via alcohol and drugs, because they're the only things that make them feel good. Your brain develops a chemical dependance, and further, your psyche is conditioned as well, like Pavlov's Dog.

Usually it seems like a combination of the two factors. And your likelihood of getting addicted...it seems to be a combination of lack of mental maturity, and a genetic predisposition. There HAVE been identified traits and markers which select for addictive personalities. And I KNOW that's true, because I have an addictive personality.

I'm addicted to caffene. I'm addicted to sugar. I'm addicted to sex, and when deprived of any of the above, I become a different person.
So even with minor stuff like that, I can see the effects of addiction.

For me, the easiest way to avoid the slippery slope is to never start heading down the hill at all.

I would never date a girl who did drugs and people who are involved with them are not my friends. I don't need that sort of BS in my life.

[Mot]

do you not agree that substance abuse is a natural progression??? i mean it normally goes something like this----
a young kid starts out smoking cigarettes, maybe some alcohol and then weed. and up the chain they move.
show me an adolescent who one day fires an 8ball after school as his or her first drug experiment. i just dont see how you cant see my point of view. not every kid that smokes weed is going to go onto harder drugs but thats the natural progression for those that are predisposed to drug addiction.

I think progression is certainly one route. But I refuse to believe that weed is always that "gateway". For example, a friend of a friend, refuses to ever smoke weed, But he loves to blow coke. Certainly it wasn't weed that led him down that path, most likely it was his abuse of other substances or certain factors in his life that have led him to that decision. My point is, that people make the active choice to delve into harder drugs. Even you know, if you smoke weed, theres no magic feeling that just makes you decide, wow I'm gonna go blow an 8 ball or jam a needle in my arm, that sounds fun.

It's scientificly proven that people carry addictive traits. For example if some ones father was an alcoholic, sure their children might not become alcoholics, but if they did start drinking the chances of abuse would be much higher. I have seen it happen to friends first hand.

to sum up my point. I don't disagree with you, that hard drugs are never a good thing. I don't think any one in their right mind would try to argue that point. All I'm saying is there are many factors that lead to heavy drug use/abuse and while weed can certainly be one of those factors, its not the end all be all "gateway" drug that our culture seems to think. The personality of the person in my opinion has just as much to do with it. Its a choice you actively make to goto harder drugs.


Edit: I wanna thank every one for keeping this civil so far. I really think this is a fascinating debate, and every one is certainly entitled to their views. And blunt I dunno if you read my response in the other thread. But I would never ever ever ever EVER fly unless I was 100% percent sober. I don't fuck around with my life or other peoples lives. You can fuck up and die very easily up there. So no worries about having your pilot being stoned, cause that won't be me.

[ivo316]

Of course it is carried in the genes, and you can tell who might be an addict when they are children.

The actual fact is that drugs are a cane for a limping personality, guys who can't have fun if they don't have a couple of beers, guys that have a lousy time unless they smoke a joint...

Also you don't have to forget addiction to endorphines, the main cause of obese people, they get addicted to food because they feel better when they eat, they also suffer from lack of self esteem...

At last, these people don't like themselves, and they use food, alcohol and drugs to be other people (to behave differently) I tried lots of things in my youth, but since I can live with myself, i did not need to use any drug more than once or twice to test the effect, that's because I don't need to disguise my true self among others. I am the grandson of an alcoholic, nephew of an alcoholic, and nephew of a cocaine addict (among lots of other things), and they all have a common denominator, conflict laden personalities and boring as hell unless "on something"

Please read some psychology toxicology books, it's all explained, documented and tested on thousands of people, there is no need for "I believes" or speculation, addictions are just personality disorders that end up being physical addicitions, but the first few times the need is psychological.

[DarkWing6]

All I'm saying is there are many factors that lead to heavy drug use/abuse and while weed can certainly be one of those factors, its not the end all be all "gateway" drug that our culture seems to think.

I agree with Mot is saying. The only thing I would point out or maybe slightly disagree is that while weed is not the end all be all gateway it is a very popular and easy way to get into illegal substances. Some may argue that it should be legal (i'm not gonna get into that and I don't think we should either), but the fact is that weed can (and many times will) start you down the path to at least try something harder. I never have done or will do drugs so I can't say this from experiance, but from what I have heard, read, and just thought this seems to make sense.

[trent]

Wow a civil thread on r3v.

I agree with the others who state that weed is a "gateway" drug. While I do not know the chemical aspects, nor am I going to argue if addiction can be hereditary, however, I do have lots of real life experience. I grew up with the "wrong" crowd. I grew up with the metal group in Junior High and High, and they generally were the "bad" kids who drank and smoked weed. Unfortunately, I always saw the progression. Booze -> Weed -> Tweek/Heroin/Coke. It was a natural progression, once they got to weed, it was a believe that weed was not that big of deal, so it became experimental to try the other, harder drugs. I must say in the end, I quit talking to most of my "friends" who got way too caught up into the hardcore drug lifestyle, and ended up in "rehab" or jail. Disappointing.

[h0lmes]

I agree with Mot is saying. The only thing I would point out or maybe slightly disagree is that while weed is not the end all be all gateway it is a very popular and easy way to get into illegal substances. Some may argue that it should be legal (i'm not gonna get into that and I don't think we should either), but the fact is that weed can (and many times will) start you down the path to at least try something harder. I never have done or will do drugs so I can't say this from experiance, but from what I have heard, read, and just thought this seems to make sense.

What about nicotine or caffeine? Those are both drugs but people seem to think that since they are legal, it is ok to do them while it is not ok to do other drugs.

[Nick]

I've never seen caffene destroy someone's life.
And Nicotine should probably be made illegal as well.

Or, we could just legalize it all and prove that Darwin was a very smart man.

[TwoJ's]

I have to agree with Blunt here. My dad was/is an alcoholic, and I think it makes it easier for me to end up like him. Not because of a gene that makes me like to drink, but because of what people call an "addictive personality".

But having said that, I think that drug use and progression to harder drugs is 99% about who you associate yourself with. If you and your friends all smoke pot, and nothing else is ever available, then it's not going to be a problem. The problem is that when you're buying and smoking bud, you are eventually going to interact with a bad influence, and I think that's why cannibus leads to other drugs. The "gateway" shit is wacky. Being high on weed and coke isn't similar at all. Maybe even opposite.