Gun Thread

[deutschman]

This is an interesting video of a study of how CCW owners react and perform in a shooter scenario. I am sorry i do not know how to get the actual video to show up so its just a link, but it is worth watching and thinking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLN6_s66wTg&feature=g-vrec&context=G2b1eabfRVAAAAAAAAAw

I do not know how many of you have been in any kind of situation where you have had to make split second decisions that could save a life or take a life, but those of you who have know what it is like. Things move very quickly and tunnel vision is a bitch. After doing some reading and watching a lot of YouTube videos of gun fights (law enforcement) and practice scenarios, I dont think I would really trust my self or any other non law enforcement or military personnel (or otherwise properly trained person) to engage a shooter with a firearm. It seams like anyone with a CCW should have to go through some sort of advanced training to get their license. Even if they have the best intention for everyone in the room when they try and defend them selves and others with a fire arm, they could end up sweeping the whole room with bullets, or doing any of the other harmful things an untrained person with a hand gun could do. If you accidentally shoot a bystander even during self defense you are still legally liable for that person. Do you really trust everyone with a CCW?

Edit:
I am not trying to say people should not have CCW's.

[myinfernalbmw]

Damn I skimmed over that part. I thought there were 600,000 carbines coming in. Balls to that bullshit. They won't sell us back our own rifles because of magazine capacity?

[myinfernalbmw]

Do you really trust everyone with a CCW?

Fuuuuuuck no. This might be a little too far left leaning a statement for some, but I think that carrying is very much a privilege and not a right. The tests in my state are a fucking joke when it comes to getting your permit to carry. Its a 20 question multiple choice written exam that I believe you have to get 15 correct on to pass. Each question is completely common sense and as long as you aren't a total fuckwit you should ace. The shooting portion is a joke as well. You essentially have to keep 20-25 shots on paper at either 28-30ft. You can re-take the shooting portion as many times as necessary to pass and if you can't pass with your own gun, the instructor will provide you with a .22 target pistol to use.

Quite simply, too many morons have permits without proper training. I think that there should be scenario based training involved when getting your permit, or at least more advanced weapon handling drills. I'd like to see how many people would fail at hitting their target in my class when it decided to rush them swinging a knife.

[ALYKZANDYR]

Damn I skimmed over that part. I thought there were 600,000 carbines coming in. Balls to that bullshit. They won't sell us back our own rifles because of magazine capacity?

Afaik all imported guns as defined by i think gca 1968 have to be in sporting config meaning no "evil features" and 10 rnd or less magizene.

[Vedubin01]

Afaik all imported guns as defined by i think gca 1968 have to be in sporting config meaning no "evil features" and 10 rnd or less magizene.

I know that is not correct. Let me see if I can remember which one it was. You were able to get Polytech AKs for a long time as well as many other "assult style" weapons. Think about all the HK rifles, well after 1968

[mrsleeve]

Dub did you really recomend a Loopy for glass??? Short of the MKIV nothing about anything loopy has made in the last 10 years impresses me for the price point when you can get a Zeiss for the same or less money.


As far as the 20/20 thing, so many mistakes going on in that clip. No one that carries and that values their life is going to stand there and just draw a weapon on someone that is already shooting with out 1st finding concealment or cover in which to do so from safely. Yes of course its got its got its bias and its obvious. This little experiment is rigged form the get go to show the desired outcome and if you dont see that then well ehhhh.....


Infernal. Your states shoot portion for the CCW class is nearly identical to what all the state LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS HAVE TO PASS, and they get just as many shots at it. Not to mention you should not be using a pistol for Self defense at anymore than 30 feet in the 1st place, your life or limb is not really in jeopardy at that distance unless you are getting in a gun fight.

[myinfernalbmw]

Infernal. Your states shoot portion for the CCW class is nearly identical to what all the state LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS HAVE TO PASS, and they get just as many shots at it. Not to mention you should not be using a pistol for Self defense at anymore than 30 feet in the 1st place, your life or limb is not really in jeopardy at that distance unless you are getting in a gun fight.

The distance wasn't my point. You shouldn't have to make rapid fire, repeat headshots at 100 yards offhand to qualify. My point was, when in a self defense situation, how often does your target stand still and wait for you to take your time placing accurate shots and accurate follow up shots? I don't know why timed accuracy drills shouldn't be a part of a permit test. If you can't pull off at least one accurate shot quickly against a stationary target, what makes you think that you can against a mobile assailant? Also, I have a few friends in local law enforcement and while they adhere to those standards to get their carry permits, they also go through a lot more training than that. They are trained in shoot/no shoot drills, low light shooting, and timed accuracy drills.

I also think you should have to pass with at least a .38/9mm. You should not be able to qualify with a .22 target pistol and then carry around a .357 airweight revolver or yo' glock "fohty". You should be proficient with whatever you are going to carry.

[mrsleeve]

I also think you should have to pass with at least a .38/9mm. You should not be able to qualify with a .22 target pistol and then carry around a .357 airweight revolver or yo' glock "fohty". You should be proficient with whatever you are going to carry.

You are making the assumption that most people with a carry permit just take the class and thats it. I dont really know too many that are like that, most everyone I know that carries also drill with their weapon, and practices with it to become PROFICIENT with what they carry.

I am not really arguing with you. Those of us that carry dont drill for low light, shoot dont shoot and things like that, as we try to avoid having to draw at all costs, and dont put our selves in situations where we might have too. like the police do. There are idiots out there that dont take the responsibility as seriously as they should, just dont try and lump all of in there with them. And if you want to get really into the nitty grity about it we really should not need a permission slip at all to carry a weapon

[deutschman]

As far as the 20/20 thing, so many mistakes going on in that clip. No one that carries and that values their life is going to stand there and just draw a weapon on someone that is already shooting with out 1st finding concealment or cover in which to do so from safely. Yes of course its got its got its bias and its obvious. This little experiment is rigged form the get go to show the desired outcome and if you dont see that then well ehhhh.....

No I could see that that drill was not taking a few things into account. First off the people in the drill knew it was not a live fire drill and there for did not respond with the same urgency or care for their own lives or others lives as they would have if there was real led coming at them. How ever people that have been involved in or investigated shootings of officers will tell you that many times officers will get shot because they failed to find the proper cover during a gun fight. It is easy to imagine and fantasize about how you would respond in a gun fight, but you really do not know until you have been there.
To get a really good idea as to how a CCW would be used in a situation such as the one in the video above, you would have to some how arrange a situation in which the person carrying the CCW thought that he and the perp both had live rounds (even though they dont), and that his/her life was truly up for grabs.
I am not against people having fire arms in public because they have saved lives, and will save lives. How ever I think that people who carry fire arms on a day to day basis have a huge responsibility (life and death), and there for should have a higher level of training and understanding of what it takes to use a fire arm in self defense situation.
If you do not know what you are doing you could hurt your self or others. What if you draw your weapon and in the heat of the moment let your finger slip to the trigger while the weapon is only a few inches out of the holster? BANG!!! You have shot your self in the leg and are bleeding out on the floor. You could be alive if you had gone through the proper drills on how to draw your gun in a hot situation. Repetitive drills in a simulated high stress environment.
When shit hits the fan your brain goes into auto pilot, and your brain and body will move and do things in the way that they are used to moving and doing. If you dont practice, or practice and pick up bad habits with learning the wrong things in the wrong way you will not perform correctly when you have to move fast. Muscle memory. Just because you can keep a 25 yard group in two square inches at the range on a nice sunny day doesn't make you a gun fighter.

[deutschman]

I am not really arguing with you. Those of us that carry dont drill for low light, shoot dont shoot and things like that, as we try to avoid having to draw at all costs, and dont put our selves in situations where we might have too. like the police do.

I guess this is the one key difference between civilians with weapons and law enforcement. How ever you can not assume that everyone with a CCW knows that they should avoid drawing their gun, or even that they might know it but think they are hot shit and pull it out anyways.
I am kind of playing devils advocate here. Consider it an exercise in thought.

[mrsleeve]

You have made my point for me you do understand then................ LOL In your 1st post.


As to the above, yes thats why most states you have to go though a formal CCW course that outlines all that, in most others you have to have some form of formal gun training.

Like I said yes there are iditos out there, but IME in the CCW world they are the rare exception NOT THE RULE. The media just flaunts it like they are the majority

[Fusion]

What kind of grips do you guys prefer on the CZ75 and similar pistols?
I'm wondering if custom alu grips are marketable.

[ALYKZANDYR]

I know that is not correct. Let me see if I can remember which one it was. You were able to get Polytech AKs for a long time as well as many other "assult style" weapons. Think about all the HK rifles, well after 1968

I think your right, im pretty sure 1968 was the start of requiring import marks though. A good example of how it is today of requiring guns imported in sporting config is the saiga 12g. They cannot be imported with pistol grip or high cap mags/drum. It may have been 1986 when this started or 94 im pretty sure it was one those two bills though.

[Vedubin01]

I think your right, im pretty sure 1968 was the start of requiring import marks though. A good example of how it is today of requiring guns imported in sporting config is the saiga 12g. They cannot be imported with pistol grip or high cap mags/drum. It may have been 1986 when this started or 94 im pretty sure it was one those two bills though.

68 ban I know had things like the "midnight specials" like the origional Walther PPK. 1986 was the AWB. And I want to think it was 94 under Clinton. But Bush Jr renewed it.

Dont hold me to that though..

[mrsleeve]

68 ban I know had things like the "midnight specials" like the origional Walther PPK. 1986 was the AWB. And I want to think it was 94 under Clinton. But Bush Jr renewed it.

Dont hold me to that though..

:rofl: :rofl: