Any UAW members here?

[JGood]

hey fuck head now you are attacking me, I belong to 2 unions I must be twice as lazy right??? fuck you. I get up between 3am and 6am 7 days a week, (I get a sunday off once in a while) I work between 12 and 24 hour days, and have not been home in nearly 6 months. My union protects me from both the contractor I work for by making sure they play by the rules, and since my union also represents a huge chunk of our customers work force it make sure they also play by the rules an we get paid for our time. Yes I pay dues ohhhh shit 24 a month, so much out of my pocket damm dont know what I will do. Our working due are about 200 a month depending on your hours. You want know what that 200ish pays for, training, so I or any of my union brothers an sisters can go when we have time off an learn more about our jobs, new technology, new equipment, class room on how things are done, hands on, you name it. That way we are worth more to our contractors and better equipped with the knowledge than 99% of that rat out fits in our industry. That money pay for the demo equipment (some cost 800k apiece) our perdiem while we are in IN for classes and the instructors. I play with very strong radioactive sources all day, not the sorta thing that you want some dip shit making 6 bucks an hour out there in the general useing. also I can run most heavy equipment and my 10 years as a pipelayer, mean I can do nearly anything that involves build water, sewer, cross country gas pipelines, roads large building foundations, my list can go on and on. Yes a union helped me all through my child hood I had good health care because my dad was a union man, when he got lou gehrig's the union and his contractor that he put 30 years into took care of him till he passed and they now hold both of my retirement accounts (that the general funds are still making money) provide good heath care for both me and the wife, as well make sure she is taken care of if something bad happens to me.


While I will tend to agree that the UAW has slit its own throat. The UAW is not the only union out there Look in cites that are have lots union shops compared to having few. The largely unionized cities have a higher average wage across the board for both union and no union shops, the same goes for entire states. Not all unions are bad bro, a union is only as good as its management, just like an contractor or business dont let the UAW form you opinion of all unions.

Easy turbo, I never attacked you.

You are completely missing my point. I never said unions are horrible to work for.

And I refuse to read the next post you make that doesn't use paragraphs, so don't try to continue this useless debate until the union sends you to school for that. ;)

Yes, competition. It works. Unions destroy competition, they destroy self worth, they destroy creativity. If a job sucks and you are not paid enough, quit. Find something better. If you can't find something better stick with it while you go to night school. Then find something better.

What people forget is that you have already gotten all you deserve to get after 22 years even if they fire your ass. They have already paid you. You agreed to work for them for certain pay. You got that. They don't owe you a damn thing after that. You may feel you deserve more because of all the blood and sweat you put into it, but the fact is you don't. Would it suck to have that happen? YES, of course it does. I know. I was there.

Do top executives do stupid and self destructive things? Yes they do. They can be just as greedy and stupid as the unions. Are some companies bad to work for? For sure. But, if that company wants to survive, they have to either pay more, or treat their people better. But that is only assuming there is some value in experienced and trained people. If all you do is install front seats in Ford F150's all day long, something that anybody could figure out in 10 minutes, then you can be replaced by any schmuck off the street. Get over it. Either improve yourself and get a job where skill is required, or get a Government job.

All the US big car companies should have gone to 90% automated factories years ago. There would be tons of jobs for people in designing, building, maintaining, servicing, installing, evaluating, those robots in the factories. Untrained people won't get good replacement jobs, but people willing to learn, will. It is painful... very painful, but you come out better for it. Unions have stopped all that from happening. Bang, now the economy drops and the bubble bursts. The leadership at the big car companies are 50% of the problem. But the unions are the other 50%.

Well said.

[JGood]

My industry also trains all of r workers!!!! they r professionals and trust r lives in there hands alot ...... no ! would want a 40000 pound container landing on them.....

They train their workers? I sure as hell hope so, they'd really be useless if not.

My company paid for 100% of my Masters degree, and I did as much on-the-job training as needed through our learning program (usually 1-2 hours per night, paid overtime).

Now that I'll be union, I won't get 100% tuition reimbursement, and the training doesn't work that way.

My point is not that unions fuck YOU over, it's that they fuck ME over, and in all instances in the telecom industry where there is major inefficiencies, it's because of union work ethic 90% of the time. That's my experience, and all I have to go off of. And someone who is getting the plush benefits "they deserve" in the union isn't going to change my mind about the inefficiencies.

[trent]

Unions are antiquated from a time when there were not laws that protected workers and their rights. I am sure there are some OK unions in America, but jesus christ, the UAW is a money hungry POS. I hope the Big3 fail, and dump the UAW on their ass. Sure it sucks for those workers, but maybe all those workers would rather have a job than the money/benefits that they always complaing about than be out on their ass.

[Massive Lee]

Unions are antiquated from a time when there were not laws that protected workers and their rights.

Just shut down GM for a minute, and legally reopen it under a new name. Ditch any union, and start fresh. Remove the current management at the same time as you don't want them to make the same mistakes that lead them where they currently are. If public money is used, then shoulnd't it become a public utility too? Or owned by workers? Just kidding, because the real problem is not there.

There are 240,000 direct employees working for the Big Three. Working perhaps an average of 35 hours/week. Which is an annual equivalent of 240,000 workers x 52 weeks x 35hrs = 436,800,000 hours (close to 437 million hours). Multiply this number of worked hours by the difference in salary with the other Japanese car makers located in the the US of $29/hour (including benefits, pension, etc). And we end up with an annual difference of $12,667,200,000 which is close to $12 billion annually for the Big Three, in excess of what employes at Honda and Toyota in the US have.

Basically, the $50 billion that the US car manufacturers are asking from the governement has been taken by their unions in only four years... No wonder US cars are economically not competitive.

Now, can someone tell me that unions and the benefits they got for their members haven't financially strangled their employers?

[delatlanta1281]

I used to work for The Ridge Tool Company. It is a very, very old american company and has only had the union make it into their factory once since 1903. It failed miserably.

[mrsleeve]

Look I can see that most of you guys on here have been drinking the MBA sponsored cool aid, and that makes my points useless. Just a one last thought, go talk to your grand parents that lived through the depression, epically if they are old enough to remember what it was like before the union movement. It will go right back to the way it was if we lose the unions in this country. The writing is all over the wall if you just take the time to read it.



Oh and FYI the last time GM was on strike as a whole was 1970. So lay off on the all they do is strike BS.

[Massive Lee]

Sorry dude. But I am also in favor of the principle of unions defending workers' rights. Where I have some reserves is when unions vampirize a company to the point of killing it.

GM workers get paid 50% more than Honda workers, both on the same contiment. There's something wrong. The proof of it might be in GM declaring bankrupcy.

Also, the days of the most basic workers' rights are long gone. This is not South America anymore... Wonder why many American companies have emigrated and American workers lost their jobs?

[whiltebeitel]

Look I can see that most of you guys on here have been drinking the MBA sponsored cool aid, and that makes my points useless. Just a one last thought, go talk to your grand parents that lived through the depression, epically if they are old enough to remember what it was like before the union movement. It will go right back to the way it was if we lose the unions in this country. The writing is all over the wall if you just take the time to read it.



Oh and FYI the last time GM was on strike as a whole was 1970. So lay off on the all they do is strike BS.

I took the time to read what you said, and yes, unions have their place, but they can also overstep their original intent, and instead of providing a fair and even workplace, destroy competitiveness. Unions are the most practical way to keep OSHA regulations enforced, but to crate a monopoly on the workforce to raise their wages and increase their benefits beyond their job title, that's just as bad as the Enron execs lining their pockets and taking company money to make their life easier.

[JGood]

Look I can see that most of you guys on here have been drinking the MBA sponsored cool aid, and that makes my points useless. Just a one last thought, go talk to your grand parents that lived through the depression, epically if they are old enough to remember what it was like before the union movement. It will go right back to the way it was if we lose the unions in this country. The writing is all over the wall if you just take the time to read it.

Oh and FYI the last time GM was on strike as a whole was 1970. So lay off on the all they do is strike BS.

Answer a question for me, please.

If your non-union job was going good, had excellent pay, benefits, time off, work ethic, etc... and the union stepped in, took over, and offered a shittier version of everything, how would you feel? What would your outlook of the union be? Would you be happy to PAY DUES for all of this?

How are they looking out for me, or doing good things for me? How does this help anybody in any way? Who exactly is benefiting from all of this?

[mrsleeve]

LOOK you guys are missing my point, all of you seem to judge all unions of any type based on the UAW. I am in full agreement the the UAW has slit its own throat, I have always said this. I am trying to point out that there many more unions out there than the UAW.

Like I said before a union is only as good as the management, just like anything else. Union jobs raise the bar for wages across the board for all jobs, they keep the nonunion shops close to or some what better than the union shops to keep the good help they have.

Look jgood I see your point but you have too look at it form a job security point, if you do your job well and say the new boss dose not like you for what ever reason. He cant just say "see you", for what ever reason. He would have to work very hard to get enough to shit can you, (if you are a good employee) as the union will protect your job. Unfortunately it helps keep those that deserve to go, in their job longer, never said the system was perfect.

Also the pension you get through the union is a defined befit, not a 401k that is subject to the whims of the market as much. You have many many many more people in the health care plan thus you get better plan at a cheaper price (not always but you get the idea here).

Ok say your company changes hands, and the new CEO is looking to get him self a nice fat 10 million bonus check for increasing profitability, Who will protect you form a forced pay cut that will cut you pay package in more than half??????? You need to look no further that the AAM strike earlier this year (I know UAW but how would you feel if your top exc's were going to get a 10 mill pay check on your back and you now cant feed you family as you have less than half your current net pay)


Say one day you company just shuts the doors, the union can help you get a new job at an similar wage with out the worry of maybe getting into a place where you do the same thing for 1/2 the pay package of your said employer.

Ok you get hurt on the job and workers comp wont cover you obligations what do you do, part of you package in most unions you have an aunties fund that you can draw from if you need to, once you retire it rolls into you pension contributions.


shall I continue I can go all night, you see unions protect the rank and file workers form the people at the top that dont necessarily care about them. You see when the union works with its industry, an management you get a company that can an will compeat a will remain on top of its industry. The UAW got way to greedy they have made some serious cuts on every thing from pay to health care on the contract thats due to come into effect in january, but still I think it may be too little to late.

[uofom3]

unions put companys out of business.

+1

[JGood]

LOOK you guys are missing my point, all of you seem to judge all unions of any type based on the UAW. I am in full agreement the the UAW has slit its own throat, I have always said this. I am trying to point out that there many more unions out there than the UAW.

Like I said before a union is only as good as the management, just like anything else. Union jobs raise the bar for wages across the board for all jobs, they keep the nonunion shops close to or some what better than the union shops to keep the good help they have.

Look jgood I see your point but you have too look at it form a job security point, if you do your job well and say the new boss dose not like you for what ever reason. He cant just say "see you", for what ever reason. He would have to work very hard to get enough to shit can you, (if you are a good employee) as the union will protect your job. Unfortunately it helps keep those that deserve to go, in their job longer, never said the system was perfect.

Also the pension you get through the union is a defined befit, not a 401k that is subject to the whims of the market as much. You have many many many more people in the health care plan thus you get better plan at a cheaper price (not always but you get the idea here).

Ok say your company changes hands, and the new CEO is looking to get him self a nice fat 10 million bonus check for increasing profitability, Who will protect you form a forced pay cut that will cut you pay package in more than half??????? You need to look no further that the AAM strike earlier this year (I know UAW but how would you feel if your top exc's were going to get a 10 mill pay check on your back and you now cant feed you family as you have less than half your current net pay)


Say one day you company just shuts the doors, the union can help you get a new job at an similar wage with out the worry of maybe getting into a place where you do the same thing for 1/2 the pay package of your said employer.

Ok you get hurt on the job and workers comp wont cover you obligations what do you do, part of you package in most unions you have an aunties fund that you can draw from if you need to, once you retire it rolls into you pension contributions.


shall I continue I can go all night, you see unions protect the rank and file workers form the people at the top that dont necessarily care about them. You see when the union works with its industry, an management you get a company that can an will compeat a will remain on top of its industry. The UAW got way to greedy they have made some serious cuts on every thing from pay to health care on the contract thats due to come into effect in january, but still I think it may be too little to late.

So job security is your only reasoning? And you never answered any of my questions.



I disagree on your outlook of the "deserving" part of employment. Re-read Hallen's post again if you missed it.

If my boss doesn't want me there, I either don't deserve the position, or I don't want to work for him. Help finding another job? Extra funds? Blah blah blah? What the hell is all that shit? I don't want to pay someone else and deal with all kinds of work ethic (or lack thereof) bullshit and half ass benefits to do that shit for me, I'll plan ahead and take the steps necessary to ensure my well being, without the hassle of dealing with the unions pitfalls.

Health benefits better in the union? Are you kidding me? My health benefits were to the point where I basically didn't pay a penny for anything. And now they suck ass. I have shittier everything... tuition reimbursement, vaca time, everything. That's fine, but now I have to pay more, deal with people not working hard, no incentive to work harder, a pay scale that hardly keeps up with inflation, "seniority rules" mentality, etc... How am I supposed to be "happy" about this?

If you can't see how that's fucked, you are blind.

You're not winning this argument (neither am I for that matter). You have an outlook on work as if you deserve more then the agreed to hourly rate when you were hired, and I don't. Two very different views, one of which I'm proud to say I don't agree with.

[mrsleeve]

OK which union do you have the experience with. This may shed some light on things a bit.

Ok so you you have to remember something your company is only as good as the people that you have working for you union or not. You take care of them they will take care of you. So you think as long a you work for said company your employees should have absolute loyalty to it??????????? An then the company dose not need to have at least some loyalty to its employees???????? Shit you guys think good guys are a dime a dozen, the old saying still holds true, an even more so with my generation and younger Good help is hard to find. I know I have had to train lots of people over the last 10 years an had to ship 85% or better down the road.

How would you enjoy being fired one day because you wore a blue shirt to work. a blue shirt that you have worn many times before. On this piticular day your boss dose not like bule so you get the shit can for no other reason than a blue shirt. Is that right ??????????

Next I hire on knowing what my pay package is its all those things in one deal, I dont expect anything else. (well maybe a hat) anything else I get is gravy. I do a good job and work my ass off, so the last few contractors have gone out of their way to make sure I am taken care of. As long as I am out there making money for me I am making money for them. Employment can be a give a take relationship I work some hours for free, I service my rig (I am supposed to turn it on my expense sheet I dont) same with truck washes, dark room supplies etc... I go out of my way to keep my contractor happy I earn a really good living at it. So when I was wanting to go home for 2 days, our owner came up to take my place and paid me while I was home. To keep me happy and to keep making him money! When this contractor is out of work I call the union hall and tell them I am freed up an they tell me who is needs hands.



Oh I will answer you question one more time reread my posts the answers are all there, your pay and benefits are held up buy union jobs, By you own admission you are an expense that effects the bottom line, if you boss thinks he can cut that expense but 3% he will, by forcing a pay cut on you or hiring someone else willing to work for less. Unions hold the bottom up.

the lack of loyalty on both sides now a days is absolutely disgusting


I have said my peace.

[rwh11385]

Look jgood I see your point but you have too look at it form a job security point, if you do your job well and say the new boss dose not like you for what ever reason. He cant just say "see you", for what ever reason. He would have to work very hard to get enough to shit can you, (if you are a good employee) as the union will protect your job. Unfortunately it helps keep those that deserve to go, in their job longer, never said the system was perfect.

You are really out of touch on how management works. If you are a good employee, it is not in the business's best interest to let you go. What you are basically really saying is that happens with unions and that is protecting someone who is NOT worth their compensation. Unions are great, like the government, at keeping incompentent people employed and not encouraging anyone to work any harder.

At a normal job you may work hard enough just to not get fired. In a union job you don't even have to work about that.

And what incentive is there to work hard? Promotions are based on seniority so some lazy ass who has been there longer will get the advancement before you regardless.

Imagine if schools were set up like unions, where no matter how hard you work you will get As and graduate based on seniority. Who would bust their ass to get ahead when that is impossible because of the structure? Who would try harder to do great work when they will not be incentivied or punished at all, either way?

Why work hard for your company when you will get cushy benefits and pay no matter what, and will refuse to take a pay cut for the good of the company (and the future of your job even existing)?

Unions protect the status quo for as long as they can, up until the point where failure is reached and then intervention is necessary. Unions shield the worker from the basics of economics so that inefficiencies occur and problems are much larger when they arise.

You like unions because you are terrified by big bad business. Why not just have some inefficient management run all businesses and protect the populace? Eh comrade?

[rwh11385]

Ok so you you have to remember something your company is only as good as the people that you have working for you union or not.

you guys think good guys are a dime a dozen, the old saying still holds true, an even more so with my generation and younger Good help is hard to find.

Oh I will answer you question one more time reread my posts the answers are all there, your pay and benefits are held up buy union jobs, By you own admission you are an expense that effects the bottom line, if you boss thinks he can cut that expense but 3% he will, by forcing a pay cut on you or hiring someone else willing to work for less. Unions hold the bottom up.

As you just said, good help is hard to find, so why could management want to cut a good employee to risk going to a cheaper one? That employee may realize that paycut is a backward hand slap and find better work elsewhere. Quality of employees affect the bottom line as well. Unions hold up expenses for little to no incentive to increase performance. Good employees have the power of their performance to open doors at other places, bad employees see to keep the exit door locked... what does that sound like?

If a company is as good as its worker, why try to remove incentive or competition?

You seem to be happy with keeping things as they are, and hoping they will continue to exist and not being concerned with improving things or adapting to a changing world.